4thWaveNow was founded in 2015 by Denise, the mother of a teenage girl who suddenly announced she was a trans man after a few weeks of total immersion in YouTube transition vlogs and other trans-oriented social media. Denise’s daughter Chiara has since desisted from identifying as transgender and in 2019 cofounded an organization for desisted/detransitioned women, the Pique Resilience Project.
4thWaveNow founder Denise and friends.
In early 2015, after much research and fruitless searching for an alternative online viewpoint, Denise began writing about her deepening skepticism of the ever-accelerating medical and media fascination with the phenomenon of “transgender children.”
4thWaveNow has now expanded to feature not only Denise’s writing, but that of other parents, formerly trans-identified people, and others with professional expertise and experience with young people questioning their gender identity.
Readers, please introduce yourselves and feel welcome here.
From the founder:
I created this site because mine is a viewpoint that is seldom publicly heard: that of a left-leaning parent who is critical of the dominant paradigm regarding transgender politics and treatment. My primary concern is children, teens, and people in their early 20s, particularly girls who are contemplating medical transition. While I may disagree with their views, I do understand that consenting adults have the right to do what they choose with their own bodies and minds.
Online, I have been accused of being “unsupportive,” even abusive, simply for daring to question whether lifelong medical treatment–injections and plastic surgeries–is the answer for every young person who has gender dysphoria. In my world, caring about, listening to, and lovingly parenting a child or young adult is not necessarily a synonym for unexamined “support” for everything the child says or wants. In fact, one of the main jobs in parenting a teen is, not coercion, but the offering of alternatives; discussing, and sometimes disagreeing.
It is my contention that the medical and psychological establishments are letting us all down in their rush to diagnose young people as “transgender,” then to give the message that medical treatment is the answer. Much of my writing now and in the future will focus on the adults who are encouraging so many young people to pursue extreme treatments. And I do consider hormones and surgery extreme treatment, if there is any possibility that something less drastic might be a solution.
At4thWaveNow, we are interested in hearing from parents, family members, concerned professionals, and allies from across the political spectrum. However, we are not in accord with conservative, religious-fundamentalist views about sexuality. We are strong supporters of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people.
Please read blog posts and articles carefully before asking questions or commenting, and check our our FAQs for answers to commonly asked questions.
I empathize and I am glad to meet you.
I am a long time feminist activist with a teenaged daughter who sees me as transphobic for being critical of current transsexual practices as it harms the advancement of women. All discussion on this is met with anger and as parents we have actually had to institute rules about how we treat each other ie no name calling or shutting down discussion etc…I AM DETERMINED THAT THIS WILL NOT DEVIDE US!
I get that this is in no way near what you are experiencing, but I believe our struggles have a common basis. I would welcome the chance to dialogue with you.
In solidarity
Yes, Dani, it has reached the point where even discussing these issues is condemned as “transphobic.” And the adult activists who are pushing medical transition as the solution to childhood gender dysphoria are perfectly happy to drive a wedge between kids and their families if they don’t get their way.
Thank you for your comment, and hope to hear more from you.
So very true. I am feeling like I am losing my mind, not mention my daughter. I am a supportive mother, and I want my child to be happy and productive, but she has found “friends” that validate her desire to morph into a half girl/ half man being. I only say man because she thinks having a beard makes her a man She is 19 and away at college. She believes she is an adult. I have tried many times to tell her that when I was 19 and the things I felt strongly about faded away before I was 25. I am just asking her to put off taking hormones or anything medical until she finishes school. She tells me I am not supportive and not trying to be helpful. I attend meetings for parents of trans kids. What am I doing that is not being supportive? I just called my doctor and asked for something for anxiety. I can only imagine how my daughter must feel.
Sheri, welcome. Unfortunately, the current definition for a parent being “supportive” is just to uncritically agree with our kids’ conviction that they need hormones and surgery to be happy. And I’m glad you mention that your daughter is 19. Because 18 is the age of medical majority, people often think we should just abdicate our still-active parenting instincts at that time. But we now know that judgment, impulse control, and awareness of future consequences is still undeveloped at that age. It’s not until about age 25 that a modicum of maturity is achieved in this area of cognitive development. Glad you found us. I hope sharing here and hearing other parents’ stories will provide some measure of relief to you.
I have finally found someone like-minded in you! I completely agree with what you write. My daughter, who is 17, told me last year on Mother’s Day that she was now my son. Since I suspected that she might be a lesbian, it wasn’t too much of a shock. However, when I began researching this subject I was extremely concerned with the medical intervention that takes place with these children. Then when I went to a meeting for parents with transgender children, I was shocked about how all of these parents were jumping on the bandwagon of drugs and surgery without questioning. They even complain about wait times for surgeries! I make it a point to question everything in these meetings and I know that they are just annoyed with me. The only reason I go now is to bring up questions, so that the new parents who attend can see that there is another side. Unfortunately, here in Canada, children as young as 16 can make medical decision for themselves and parents are not allowed to intervene (and surgeries are free). Hormones still have to be paid for, so that is a relief to know that my daughter won’t have the money for that.
Anyway, it’s been a difficult road for us. I drew the line on any medical intervention while she’s living in the house (except, of course, she can present as any way that she wants and I will call her by her chosen name). When I told the parents group that they were all shocked.
I wish I could meet people in my area who are in the same situation. It’s very difficult doing this alone.
Thank you for your blog.
I’m so glad you found us. There are at least two other moms like us who comment regularly here, and plenty of support to buck the trend in your real life, however you can.
It is indeed shocking that most parents seem to accept rather blithely that their child will now have a lifelong medical condition that will require monitoring and treatment by MDs and surgeons and injections of powerful drugs. When I looked around me, as you have, and saw that I was pretty much alone in my skepticism, I knew I had to do something. The more I learned, the more skeptical I became of the dominant trans paradigm.
We need to speak out as much as we can. It’s only by doing that that things might begin to turn around–if not for our own daughters, for others in the future.
I will also write to you privately. Would it be ok if I highlight your comment in a blog post so it has more visibility?
Sure, you can highlight my comment. I hope we can start some kind of movement that will put an end to this insanity. It is definitely a cult type situation that has gone mainstream and it is hard to fight against it. Mothers, however, have a lot of power. Think of the Madres de Plaza de Mayo and how they have advanced in their cause. I hope we can make a change, too.
i live in montreal, if that is any help to you. i would love to talk with you. my parents faced this issue with my sibling in 1968, and there were no resources and much mystery. we have been through hell ever since, for various reasons. she is now in 24/7 hospital care as a result of, i believe, the hormones. i believe she has had multiple strokes, heart attacks and embolisms from the cross sex hormones. she was a canadian transsexual “pioneer” who started the first north american support group for transsexuals….however, the trans community ignores her because she is a “failed” case, wasting away in hospital….bon courage, as we would say in quebec.
Several readers here are also from Canada. Welcome to the community, and thank you.
I just recently found this blog and read your comment. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you sharing your family’s experience. It needs to be heard that there can be serious complications from these lifelong treatments.
please know that you are not alone. my brother had a sex change operation in 1975 and now is paralysed (massive strokes, embolisms and what appears to be multiple sclerosis) from the massive amounts of hormones that preceded and followed the surgery. i have been alarmed lately by the massive media attention paid to something which, in effect, was one of my gravest traumas as a young woman (actually i was going through puberty myself). i want answers also, and have been researching the transsexual phenomenon for a while…..i will continue to read your blog and i invite you to read mine. we need to amass information and resources to stop this insanity. so we can correct this socially abusive situation. rock on!!
Thank you for writing, and so sorry to hear about your brother. Do the doctors actually admit that his medical condition was at least partly brought on by his hormone treatments?
it was all a big mystery back then. they even thought it might be AIDS, as it was 1985 that she crashed into a vegetative state. she remained in that state for several months and they told us to walk away. she was taking massive, and i mean massive amounts of hormones. she was young and healthy when this event occurred.
she has since had many strokes and embolisms, UTI’s and she has been diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis. many of her muscles atrophied, her cognition has suffered (although she can still crack a good joke.)
i don’t know how we can say for sure of the cause of her disease process, it is clear to me, after reading the effects of cross sex hormones. the medical issue today is whether to keep her on a low dose of premarin and also keep her on blood thinners to mitigate the risk of stroke and embolism. the doctors and pharmacists just do not know what to do…..
i have told them to maintain a low dose, just because we do not know. tragic really. i wish i had answers or that the doctors could say definitely, but there is no history for this kind of treatment.
her medical history of this issue is already 31 years old…..for sure she will never recover a mobile or healthy life.
i do believe that at one time she had regrets, but today she is accepting of what life has thrown her. she says “life is the gift.”
if only we could all take that and not do such terrible damage to ourselves.
Bullshit, nobody transitions because it’s trendy and you are trans-phobic. Nobody would put themselves through such hell and scrutiny if they weren’t in the “wrong” body. This is absurd.
You must be joking. In every liberal enclave in the US, being a “trans” teen is far cooler and more accepted than being (say) lesbian. Ask the butch lesbians who are under intense pressure to transition.
You need to read a lot more. Start with the links below. And I’m not interested in a big back-and-forth between us, so no need to respond further. Your voice is far louder than the parents and young women who need this blog. The pejorative “TERF” and the accusation of “transphobia” is amplified daily by the fawning media–along with all the stories glorifying the transitions of toddlers and kindergartners.
This blog is my house, and you can come here to learn something new–or go back to your own lair.
http://bigboobutch.com/2013/10/14/another-sister-lost-to-the-madness/
http://transgenderreality.com/
https://purplesagefem.wordpress.com/2015/05/10/on-leaving-the-trans-cult/
katherine, why so negative because someone expresses an opinion?
Hi cyborgurl. Don’t take it personal and it won’t sound negative to you. LGBTQ people are doing it to be cool. It’s not a choice. It’s only a choice of whether or not to come out and how. The people who “experiment” and find out they are straight should be allowed privacy and room to figure out their own paths. The surgeries that do not work are not only happening to trans people. Everyone goes through bad surgeries…
Does this help answer your question?
i do not understand what you are saying in that comment. it is very muddled to me.
Hi cyborgurl, if you mean my comment was muddled, I see where I needed to write “LGBTQ aren’t doing it to be cool”
I was addressing and combining a more recent post of the author and her home page in order to debunk how lesbians lead to bisexuals lead to trans because the author believes LGBTQ people are this way because they think it is trendy or cool. In a surgery comment the person was saying doctors are botching the surgeries for trans people as if they should not have surgery… and I was debunking that in that everyone goes through bad surgeries not just trans people.
The author is moderating most of my comments… so she thinks this is about opinion and not being born gay or trans etc.
If your comment wasn’t to me… well here’s my clarification regardless.
I moderate all comments. If you read my comment policy (on my front page), I explicitly say priority is given to gender-critical commenters, for the simple reason that the media is full of opinions just like yours. This is a safe place, an alternative, because there aren’t any other safe places to discuss these issues in a critical way elsewhere. Also, I don’t publish comments that call me names; that is also made clear on the front page. I’m not your punching bag, and that’s not what this space is for (you have plenty of places to insult feminists like me, elsewhere on the Internet). I said I will consider comments that respectfully disagree, but the two comments I didn’t publish of yours said nothing of value; they only told me how horrible you think I am. Not interested and don’t have the time for that kind of crap.
Let’s be REALLY clear: I am an ally of LGB people. I think the LGB organizations have mostly been hijacked by the “T” and I’ve written about it extensively on my blog. I don’t think every person who defines themselves as trans does it to be “cool.” What I said was that there is a trend amongst young people, especially young lesbians. I linked to several places for you to read more about it, but you said you weren’t interested.
And yeah, for the record, I don’t believe children are born trans.
As to bad surgeries, I am a critic of transgender surgery for young people, period. It goes way beyond whether the surgery is “bad” or “good”; it’s critiquing the very foundation of the ideology that justifies major surgeries like this in the first place.
cyborgurl (or anyone else) please feel free to add your thoughts here. I will host the discussion as long as it seems valuable.
cyborgurl, I commented the way I did because it’s not a safe place for me. It made me sad and angry. You’re working out your opinions here in the manner of a support group about what you fear… and you are trans phobic. And that’s ok for you and you need to to come to terms with your feelings, so I get that. But I know trans people. They are not who or what you think. Sorry for making you feel insulted. I was acting out of the pain I felt from hearing your prejudices. I know you find your own evidence to back your feelings and opinions about trans people and that you feel unsafe around them. I hope one day the real facts will lead you away from your generalizations and misconceptions of trans people.
this is cyborgurl, not 4th wave commenting….this is her blog…there are some issues that you need to investigate. i have spent more than 40 years dealing with this, personally in my close family, and i have no problem with trans-identified people. i have lived with a trans-identified person who was surgically and medically harmed. it led me to really read the primary sources for the dialogue on transsexuality. i have no problem with men wanting to appear as dressed women….that is the spectrum of gender that is really about fashion. what we wear and how we present to others is really about fashion. women in other cultures and times of history did not dress or even behave like western european/american women. there is no evidence based science that proves a female or male brain, or patterns of behaviour. the science does not back any of the theories put forward on the transgender sites on the internet. and the treatment does not have good results, generally. many lives have been destroyed by the rush to change sexual organs…..so refrain from labelling people as “transphobic”…you need to read more.
The claim of “transphobia” is generally just a ploy to shut people up. A phobia is an irrational fear. There’s nothing irrational about your words, Cyborgurl, and those of us who are daring to speak up aren’t afraid. We are, if anything, angry. There is no science to back up the rush to medically transition young people, in particular, and even the kingpins of pediatric transgenderism–like Norman Spack– admit it. I’m working on a post about this right now.
This isn’t about “hating” trans people. It’s about seeing them as useful pawns and, in the case of kids, innocent victims.
I just found your blog and am so glad to have done so. Tears stream down my face as I read the entries. Until now I have felt so alone and helpless. I was beginning to think I was a crazy, terrible parent, as the loud and clear (and virtually the only) advice available when confronted with this parenting nightmare is to immediately and absolutely — without question — accept what the child is saying and get them started transitioning.
Add myself and my daughter to the growing (exploding?) list of concerned parents with girls who suddenly decide they are boys after puberty. Some day I might take the time to add my story to your blog, but honestly, it reads so much like the others already here: quirky, socially awkward girl who had always identified as a girl (although never a pink sparkly princess) suddenly decides that because she loves science, pokemon and video games rather than makeup, hairstyles and clothes she MUST actually be a boy. She says she is a gay boy, as she is attracted to boys.
She is a beautiful girl with lovely figure — my gut feeling is that my daughter wanted the attention she was getting from boys to stop. In addition to her rejection of the princess culture, she hated being objectified, ogled, pawed at and cat-called to. She has made herself as covered up and unattractive as possible, lost a good deal of weight (the curves are mostly gone) and declared herself a boy. Of course, the Tumblr culture and current Caitlyn Jenner worshiping by the uber-PC entertainment media have urged her along in her pursuit to disappear and cease existing as a female. Right now the patriarchy is winning.
I love that my daughter has always been such a unique individual who enjoys intellectual pursuits rather than being obsessed with clothes and boys. She has always had such a stubborn, questioning, skeptical (but open) mind of her own — I love that! But when it comes to the FTM agenda being pushed on lesbian and “non-princess” girls, my smart, feminist, skeptical, open-minded daughter has fallen hook, line and sinker for the trans-cult scam. How do we deprogam these girls before they harm themselves with irreversible medical procedures which are billed as “the only cure”?
I agree something needs to be done, action needs to be taken, and the medical community needs to make big changes in how these cases are handled. What can I do to help?
FTMSkeptic, welcome. Please keep participating here. Comment on news stories elsewhere. Don’t lose heart because you are no longer alone. And I will also write to you privately.
I am relieved to find this site. We are a progressive family caught in the teenage transgender wave. It’s so scary. I can’t even put it into words. What we are seeing are pockets of teens in different towns who are declaring themselves either non-binary or transgender. In many cases, these are teens who showed no gender variance at all, and then they get connected with a group in their high school, and suddenly a large percentage of them are identifying this way. The information they find on the internet convinces them that physical transitioning via hormones and surgery is not only the only way to go but should also be available to them right now, as soon as they want it. I am very concerned that the medical community is not looking at the sheer number of teens, post-puberty, who are making these kinds of declarations and asking whether this can be genuine or a temporary stop on the process of figuring out one’s identity as a teenager. Peer influence is just so huge in these kids. As soon as they turn 18, they are seeking medical intervention, and the model now is informed consent, so we have lots of teenagers and young adults making permanent changes to their bodies when their brains have not yet reached adulthood. Very, very scary.
Welcome to the community, Philomena. Could I post your comment again in a separate post for more visibility?
Sure. Thanks for asking.
4WN,
Not sure this is the best post location for my query but couldn’t see another way to contact you and, based on what I’ve seen in your blog, I think you might be able to help me find an answer…
All other issues aside, I’m having a fundamental philosophical issue with transsexuality [I’m not using transgender anymore since, so far as I can tell, the latest definitions of tg mean that I am or was transgender because I wore nail polish, eyeliner, and lipstick as a teenager (it was the 80s)]. The problem I see is this: I concede the possibility that one could feel that s/he has the “wrong” body; what I don’t get is how that awareness would also tell h/er/im what the “right” body would be. As a trivial example: if the first ice-cream I eat is strawberry and I don’t like it, that doesn’t mean I know that I will like chocolate but only that I don’t like strawberry; I’d have to taste chocolate before knowing anything about it.
Applied back to TS, then, how do they claim to ‘know’ what’s “right”?
I don’t see how it can be based in anything other than personal perception/projection and socialized gender construction but I’m thinking there must be a different answer.
Nota bene: I don’t expect the answer to be one you accept (nor one I would find compelling) but I’m guessing that in your research you might have found *an* answer. Any ideas/links?
Thanks.
Moving, shocking, and remarkably well handled blog, BTW.
I agree with you, and I think your ice cream analogy is apt. When people insist they “know” they are the opposite sex, what are they basing that on? Certainly not experience (apart from, as you say, projection and socially constructed ideas about gender). Because, as you note, they haven’t “eaten the chocolate ice cream”, so how can they know what it tastes like? I have noticed that no trans activist can answer the question “What is a man?” or “What is a woman?” apart from saying it’s a feeling.
Of course, the foundation of the transgender paradigm is believing fervently in a baked-at-birth-and-unchangeable male and female brain. Without that belief, there could be no justification for changing the body to “match” the mind. I am working on a collection of studies/links for the brain sex question, but from what I’ve read, there is very little solid or replicated research which would support the premise of a sexed brain. The latest research I’ve seen indicates that there is a small difference in brain size (male brains being slightly larger), but that’s pretty much it. And the belief in an immutable, inborn gendered brain flies in the face of very strong research about brain plasticity throughout the life span.
Extending your ice cream metaphor to children and adolescents, they haven’t tasted much of ANY kind of ice cream, so they know even less about what it means to be “male” or “female.”
All that said, I really can’t speak for the people who’ve had an intense experience of dysphoria which has convinced them they are in the “wrong body.” I would point you to blogs of detransitioned males (from your lipstick reference I’m assuming you are male). Joel Nowak has an interesting blog here: http://retransition.org/
Another good blog is here: http://thirdwaytrans.com/
Of course there is a lot more to say on all of this. Perhaps other readers would like to weigh in?
Thanks for the pointers and insight. It appears to be, as I feared, some loose gesturing towards underdeveloped science and over-indulged subjectivity. Worrying stuff, from numerous perspectives. I’m not sure how’d I’d cope with the lived reality of your own situation but my wife and I both are coming to terms with the idea that, as we plan our own family, we may yet have to.
Oh and, Yes, your reading was accurate–I was born with dangling bits and raised under the (apparently horribly oppressive) notion that that meant I was a “boy” who would become a “man”. How silly! And how terrible it must have been for me to grow up thinking that Nick Rhodes [and John Taylor…if homosexuality were a choice, I’d have made it for JT] and Robert Smith and Daniel Ash and Boy George were demonstrating different ways to be a “man” as opposed to, I guess, repressing their fundamental womanness [??!??].
I’ll keep reading and wish you the best in navigating these waters.
Hello! Although I have been faithfully reading your excellent blog since its inception, I have hesitated to actually write to you. You would probably consider my viewpoint to be “conservative, religious-fundamentalist,” and I frankly didn’t think you would want to hear from me. Granted, perhaps if we were ever to meet over a cup of coffee, there would be subjects on which we would have to simply agree to disagree. However, on THIS topic, I believe we are very much sisters in arms. I am a distraught parent also looking for support, and I just want you to know that I immensely appreciate your well-researched and well-written blog.
Our situations are also different in that I am the mother of a young man in his late 20’s who, within the space of just a few months of bingeing on Reddit and YouTube transition videos, decided that he was transgender, and is undergoing transition at a frightening speed. Obviously, he is old enough to do whatever he pleases, and all I can do is grieve quietly as I watch him from afar as he destroys his physical and mental health.
Even though your topics tend to be more about the situations of young women who feel they need to transition (and rightfully so, given your situation), I can still appreciate the love and concern you show for your daughter and those like her, and your fierce protective instinct. Unfortunately, I can also very much appreciate the feeling of being all alone in this journey. Perhaps I am misreading you, but I get the impression that you think that when a child proclaims that he or she is transgender to a “conservative” parent, all their friends and family and church members circle the wagons around the parents and surround them with support. Trust me; that is not the case. In addition to being called transphobic, we also get to be called unchristian and evil.
Anyway, please forgive the length of this post. I simply wanted to let you know that there is yet another parent out there who is greatly appreciative of all your time and effort in keeping up this blog. Thank you.
Very nice to hear from you. Please comment and share as often as you like. Your post highlights the situation of many other parents I’ve heard from. Just because a child has reached the age of medical majority does not mean that his/her parents won’t grieve or want to be heard, as trusted advisers, by these young adults. The pain you are experiencing is shared by many other readers of this blog.
Another example of a girl changing to please others:
https://www.facebook.com/humansofnewyork/photos/a.102107073196735.4429.102099916530784/1028874110520022/?type=1&theater
“Then I became upset, because we as women seem so eager to help sell our gender down the river.” Wonderful comment and welcome to the community, lecrom415. I also grew up in an era when it was easy to be a tomboy and no one was telling us we were “really” boys–even if WE said we were, which seems to be the criterion nowadays to be labeled a “trans kid” and eligible for a glowing media profile in the Washington Post or New York Times. Something has gone very, very wrong in Western societies. It will take more of us women waking up, like you have, to make a change happen. Talk to your friends and family about your insights. Little by little, we can open some minds.
worried doc here again
I think the focus of our energy should be with getting the word out by whatever means necessary. I have been attempting to reach various media contacts where I’ve met significant resistance. this issue needs to see the light of day as quickly as possible. the lives of many people are in the balance. if anyone has any media contacts I would gladly appreciate it and would be more than happy to discuss things with my authority as a physician. Let’s turn over rocks, the light of day is our ally.
I don’t have media contacts,but I would also like to DO something. I’m sure the conservative news sites would eat this up, but I would prefer not to go that route. Their objections are very different than mine and several here.
You can e-mail me at the following address: 81007081@opayq.com
The loudest push back, unfortunately, might come from some high profile trans people.
On another note, I mentioned starting a support forum. I know proboards offers free hosting. Problem is it will take me forever to figure out how to get that up and running. If there is anyone here who is more versed in figuring that stuff out and would like to take that on, that would be great.
I do not have any media contacts. However, I sent an email to the NY Times public editor asking that the Times include stories of regret and detransitioning in their coverage. Their transgender stories may include that although I have not seen that. Please also write to them.
I am in the thick of this with an extremely strong-willed, difficult teen (aside from the trans stuff) who is also diagnosed with anxiety and depression. We’ve been through two therapists already because my kid brings out the trans stuff and then that becomes the focus of her therapy. I feel like no on listens to ME, as the parent, about what could be going on. Or “honors” us, in trying to actually help instead of sending my kid on a path of chemical and surgical mutilation.
We’re not religious and we don’t care if she’s gay. But she’s a she. She’s not an it or a them or a he. We’ve never cared how she wears her hair or her clothing choices or policed her friends. But she has mood issues and she’s using this trans stuff as a way to amplify normal teenage issues — I hate my body; I’m exploring becoming a sexual person; my brain isn’t fully-finished, but I think I’m always right.
We feel that the anxiety and depression and strong-willed/ODD stuff is causing her to seek out things to obsess over to relieve her anxiety and to control everyone around her. The professionals all seem to think that we have it backwards — that the anxiety and depression and need for control stem from the fact that she’s trans. Do we just have to forego any therapy or support because the therapeutic community is so at odds with sane parents? She’s on medication which has helped with acting out destructively and controls the depression and anxiety enough that she’s happier. But the trans stuff is destroying our relationship with her and breaking up our family.
And, we’re terrified to talk about it since everyone else seems to be on the trans-is-terrific train. The last thing I need is a bunch of judgmental people screaming for my head in social media because I won’t kowtow to this fad.
katiesan, this is so painful. I’m glad you found your way here, though. I would hunt for another therapist. Screen them over the phone first. I don’t understand why so many otherwise intelligent people don’t see how this is a fad, as you say, for at least some teenagers. It was in our family too. All one has to do is investigate social media where teenagers hang out and it’s plain to see. If it’s OK with you, I would like to take your comment and post it more prominently as a guest post. Please keep us posted about how things go.
I would be fine with that. Thanks for asking and for this site. It gives me hope to see that I am not alone in being in this situation and not alone in my reaction to it.
So what if it is a fad? How will it hurt you or anyone else to use different pronouns or names because of a fad, which will, if it’s a fad, just grow old and fal away in a few months?
You seem to hate the idea of chemical transition, and perhaps you have a reason, but what you don’t realize is that you are likely making it *more* probable, as soon as majority or emancipation is attained, by entrenching resistance. If it is actually a fad, YOU are turning it into an identity forged by sweat and tears,
So you have a problem with therapists actually listening to their client and dealing with her issues, rather than listening to the parent and enforcing the parent’s views on gender?
“Shes a she and not an it or a them or a he” is gender, and insisting on it is enforcing; this has no necessary link to any chemicals. You don’t care about hair but somehow you do about pronouns, which can be just as hurtful and which *is* also gender.
What you are seeking is called reparative therapy. It is discredited and in some places (which are not tumblr) banned. You might be able to find it but, and I tell it to you in the face under my real name, IT IS CHILD ABUSE to seek therapy that would enforce your view on gender, including pronouns, on your child.
You need to lay off and follow the advice of licensed professionals regarding psychological treatment of your child (I am not mentioning any chemicals here but pronouns and names are included). Or your child needs to call child protection services.
And you are the only person destroying the relationship. Perhaps other gender enforcers in the family too. Your child is blameless for this.
You’re confusing sex and gender, ramendik. The pronouns ‘he’ and ‘she’ are simply classifiers of sex, like boy, girl, man and woman. Gender is a ‘view’ or an ‘opinion’ but biology is a ‘fact.’ A supportive parent doesn’t reinforce the illusion that it’s possible to change sex, it’s not, that would be lying to your own child. Professional therapists are not there to go along with everything a client says, but to exercise professional judgment; what is shocking is that so many therapists are prepared to support delusional and magical thinking in their clients re trans ideology, which they would not do in any other area.
To blame the parents for turning ‘trans’ into an identity would be funny if this issue was not so serious – parents have more power than the relentless trans activist lobby?? I agree with your last sentence ‘your child is blameless.’ So are parents. The responsibility here lies with trans activists and ‘professionals’ with a vested interest in medicalising our kids for life, who are brain-washing young people into a belief system worthy of a religious cult.
Actually no, I am not confusing sex and gender. Sex is the biological fact. Gender is the behavioural role assigned to a sex. Use of pronouns is not biology. it is behaviour, thus, it is gender.
You can’t pick and choose, and say that only the behaviour parts you don’t like (for example, those that hurt women) are gender, and the other behavioiur parts are somehow sex. No, sex is biology alone; the only behaviour that can be called “sex” is that biologically required (for example, a man peeing out of the head of his penis) or directly and materially linked to biology (for example, a woman going to an Ob Gyn). Pronouns are neither; they are gender. So enforcing pronouns on a child is enforcing gender on a child.
I am not a fan of medical treatment before age 16 (or surgery before age 18) unless absolutely necessary; I do prefer the tried WPATH standard on that. However, there is nothing medical about allowing a teenager to use the name and pronouns they choose, and respecting that choice in interaction with the teenager.
Moreover, consider the possibility that it starts as a fad. So a natal girl says “my name is Bill now and call me he”. And consider two scenarios.
(a) parents and school play along with the names and pronouns to the teenager’s heart’s content and work with psychologists. They do drag their heels on bodily medical treatment, but bring in the latest and greatest of queer theory (with ample support on tumblr etc) that you can very well be a man with D-cups and anyone who disagrees is a transphobic bigot. Result: the teenager has their fill of the fad, in half a year they have a new identity and new interest.
(b) parents try to enforce a female gender, even as understood in modern society. “A woman can dress the way she likes etc but YOU ARE A SHE and you will confirm in segregation”. The teenager feels resistance to their choice and starts building up their own strength to resist that. They find ways to communicate with supportive friends even if the parent is abusive about cutting off communications (yes it’s abuse). Worst case – self-harm (or worse) or escaping from home. Best case – identity that perhaps was originally a fad gets entrenched, and as soon as adulthood on emancipation comes, medical treatment is certain.
Now what was the reason to insist on pronouns again? Some sort of allegedly feminist ideology and class solidarity?..
And more on “unplugging” abuse: I am originally from Russia and still well plugged into the Russian Internet, and while I’m quite far from my teenage years I have friends of different ages (17 upwards currently) and also read a rather notorious LGBT social networking group called “Children 404” which is always on the verge of getting banned. You might have heard about mainstreaming of homophobia in Russia. And I’ve seen the exact same stuff happen about gay/lesbian children in Russia, Exact same claims about “fads”, about “harmful influence of online interaction”, and about “powerful groups recruiting children online” (there is a law against “gay propaganda” in Russia, pushed by this very “concern”). The results, of course, are exactly as I describe, from entrenchment to worse.
in the english language gender used to be reserved to describe languages that used gendered nouns…like french. english uses neutral nouns….the use of gender as we know it today was only introduced by dr john money at johns hopkins university to describe the way that men and women behave differently. his research has since been debunked, and yet we hold fast to the idea that gender is something different to biological sex…..academics held fast to the idea of gender as cultural divisions of behaviour. sex is our biology…”he” represents male biology and “she” represents female biology…gametes…sexual reproduction….chromosomes….we do not refer int he english language to “dress” as “her dress” like the french say “la robe.”
if a person is born male they will be buried male….take off the dress and the makeup of a MtoF person and the body does not lie….only people lie…..my sibling will in a hundreds of years time, be dug up by archeologists, the bones analysed and the body will be deemed a male person. the issue seems to be is whether gender, or behaviour in a stereotypical male or female designation is innate, biological or in the brain wiring or composition. as a gender critical feminist, i maintain that there is no such thing as biological determinants of non-biological behaviour….that is what kept women in he kitchens for so many generations and was the reason we did not have the vote for so many years…we were the weaker sex….
you may want us to use the pronoun most suited to a person’s self professed identity as male or female, but i decry that simplification of men and women. to me, “he” represents nothing more than the biology…that is a very fundamental social marker…useful in many ways, and not useful in others. men come in all forms of masculinity and femininity…should i call an effeminate man “she”?
my sibling is “he” when i refer to my brother in the past, and for her i use “she” in her present form…let’s say, i will play into her delusion because she is hurting nobody now…she has been paralysed by the hormonal treatment she received for the sexual identity confusion. he was most likely a homosexual teenager who was in a culture where it was illegal…what would you have done and what are we doing to kids today??
so think deeper into the pronoun debate….it is not as simple as it seems….and it has very deep psychological consequences to people who wish to express their nature, but do not want to alter their bodies….i am a tomboy, will you call me “he”?
In reply to your post below ramendik, you are wrong, pronouns are just indicators of someone’s biological sex, nothing else. Pronouns have nothing to do with behaviour.
I don’t know why you mention feminist ideology and class solidarity, I didn’t.
You seem to suggest that parents should reinforce the child’s illusion, and get everyone else to collude in it too until the child ‘grows out of it’ – and what then? Admit to your daughter that you knew all along she wasn’t really a boy, and that you helped make a fool of her? Has it ever occurred to you how important honesty and trust is in a parent’s relationship with a child?
And you think the only alternative to that is strict gender reinforcement? How about we just don’t force our kids into any performance of gender? Let them be themselves? And don’t lie to them?
Your analogy with the lesbian/gay issue in Russia is particularly ironic given that transing kids is the cleverest method of gay conversion therapy I could think of. Here’s the difference: lesbian and gay sexual orientation is a real thing, being the opposite sex isn’t. Unfortunately homophobia is a real thing too, which is why some parents are relieved to find an alternative to admitting their child is gay. Trans ideology feeds right in to that homophobia.
The kind of nasty accusations you made towards katiesan are typical of the methods used by trans activists to bully parents into embracing trans ideology, and I can’t take seriously anyone who uses such cruel tactics. So I won’t be responding any further, I don’t think there’s any point.
A person’s biology only necessarily matters between themselves, their immediate family, their intimate partner(s), their doctor(s), and in some cases police. The very fact that a person has to use gendered pronouns to give some hint of their biology to the others is *gender*, not sex. In fact, “indicator of biological sex” is the very foundation of gender.
Class solidarity is often mentioned by alleged feminists as a reason people have to use biologically linked pronouns. Something about not erasing oppressor and oppressed classes.
I would not mention “knowing that she was not really a boy”. I would mention the same thing before and after – that they (she, he, zie, whatever) can be exactly what they want, exactly as they are. Even if their gender changes three times a day between ten options. This – yes, including pronouns – is only gender, originally invented to “indicate sex”, but there is no real material need to indicate sex to anyone. They can interact with the world using ways originally evolved for men, women, both, or neither, as long as they are within certain rules ocmmon to everyone. These rules do NOT include disclosure of biology to all and sundry.
“How about we just don’t force our kids into any performance of gender? Let them be themselves?” That is exactly what I am proposing, but usage of names and pronouns is also performance of gender, by the very definition. In fact, that is where the term “gender” originated.
“Here’s the difference: lesbian and gay sexual orientation is a real thing, being the opposite sex isn’t.” Actually, both are feelings. One can feel attracted to a certain kind of persons; some kinds of attractions are broadly labeled as “orientation”, and yes sexual attraction can be fluid, especially in teenagers. And one can feel, for whatever reason whatsoever, like interacting with oneself and the world in ways traditionally evolved for men, women, and anything in between, and this, too, is often fluid in teenagers.
The kind of “nasty accusations” I make are objective based on the description and I stand over them and I would hope any teenagers subjected to abusive isolation contact child protection services. There are good precedents of bans against conversion therapy and anywhere in the English-speaking world child protection should be equipped to deal with the issue.
Your comments stand as testimony and proof of how far down the rabbit hole we are with this transition madness. Trans activists have successfully conflated anti-gay conversion therapy with a concerned parent or helping professional attempting to help a young person feel comfortable in their own body. People like you, ramendik, want to criminalize common sense. You think starting **someone else’s child** on the road to a life of testosterone injections (with all the health risks that would entail for a female body) and multiple surgeries is compassionate, but want to demonize parents who know their own kids far, far better than you ever will; parents who–guess what–aren’t coercing their kids into anything, but are trying to help their daughters actually love themselves as they are. Don’t flatter yourself that you care about our kids, ramendik. Let the record show that, in 2015, Internet strangers have the audacity to browbeat loving parents with their post-modern hijacking/co-opting of the proud gay and lesbian liberation movements of the 20th century. (Accepting one’s lesbian daughter doesn’t involve extreme medical treatments and the financial gain of surgeons, endocrinologists, and psychiatrists. Where is the glorification of THAT in the media? Crickets.) Meanwhile, they turn a blind eye to stories like the one linked below: a mother and her enabling doctors who think her Down Syndrome daughter ought to inject testosterone and remove her breasts, despite a recent stint in the ICU for serious medical issues. I don’t know how long it’s going to take society at large to wake up to the Orwellian mess ramendik is supporting. But wake up it will.
Be sure to read the fine print:
http://www.youcaring.com/sky-379306#.VYxoSE841Ls.facebook
https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/aydin-olson-kennedy-msw-urges-gender-surgery-for-down-syndrome-child-in-intensive-care-unit/
I believe transitioning kids is reparation therapy. If your boy prefers traditionally girly trappings and is attracted to boys, he must be a girl, so turn him into one and poof! — you no longer have that icky homo for a son but instead have a perfectly hetero girl. Same thing with that butchy girl you’ve got — she won’t wear dresses? She must be a boy, so get her on medication and hormones and welcome your new hetero “son” into the family. All these dangerous chemicals and surgeries are better than having a gay in the family, right?
Studies show that many of these kids outgrow their feelings of wanting to be the opposite sex (and in fact grow up to be gay adults), so why rush them into risky, permanent procedures? Parents and kids navigate this waiting time as best they can, with each family finding what works best for them. For some that means using the child’s “new” name and pronouns, for others it means something else.
There are many reasons why a child might want to be someone or something other than what they are. Much time and much psychological exploration are required before any sort of decisions can be made. In fact, GenderTrender has published a letter from a gay man who as an adult wanted to transition but who even so changed his mind — and he is an adult. https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/08/24/letter-to-gendertrender-from-a-gay-man/
Kids are not equipped to make the decision to transition, nor is it appropriate for adults to make the decision to decision for them.
I have never called for hormone treatment (in fact I mentioned I am not a fan of that under 16, or surgery under 18). I have called for acceptance of the teenager’s choice of names, pronouns, dress and communication modes/groups. Social, not medical, transition. This is the realistic way to do the “exploration” that is actually exploration, as opposed to imposition of gender performance like pronouns.
And this post has repeated descriptions of teenagers who identify with another gender allegedly because of influences of friends – not parental imposition.
Teens will do what they want within their peer groups. “Accepting” that they will do this is not equivalent to insisting that parents collude in everything a teen says or does. Parents down the ages have known better. Letting a child or teen “explore” doesn’t mean you go on every expedition with them. But today, the cart is pulling the horse on the transactivist planet. A parent who won’t celebrate and actively agree with their kid’s “gender identity” (which does often change from day to day) is a child abuser.
I also find it very tiresome when people accuse parents like us of trying to stop our kids from “expressing” or “dressing” or “cutting their hair” a certain way. Au contraire: A female with a buzz cut who prefers to wear “boy’s clothes” is still a FEmale. That’s the point. People like me and the other parents in this online community are **supporters** of gender nonconformity (which should be obvious to anyone who reads this blog and the comments). What we have a problem with is the essentially conservative viewpoint that we should validate the notion that gender nonconforming girls are actually male.
And I have to laugh at the idea that a pronoun is a “gender performance.” It’s a word that actually has meaning: “she”=female, “he”=male. Orwell would be having a grand time watching the self-imposed dystopia Western societies have created for themselves.
I believe transitioning kids is reparation therapy. If your boy is attracted to boys and prefers traditionally girly trappings, he must be a girl, so turn him into one and poof! — you no longer have an icky homo for a son. Same thing with a girl who won’t wear dresses and who wants to date girls. Pump her full of hormones, lop off her breasts and welcome your new straight son into the family. Now you won’t have to deal with a lesbo for a daughter!
Studies show most kids who want to be a member of the opposite sex eventually outgrow that feeling, so why rush them into dangerous, permanent surgical and chemical procedures? Why not just let the kid be a kid, and wait and see what sort of adult they develop into? While going through this waiting period, each family must find what works best for them and their child as far as clothing, activities, names and pronouns go. For some families this might mean using the child’s “new” name and pronouns, for others it might mean something else — but in all cases, plenty of time and psychological exploration are needed.
There are many reasons why a child might want to be someone or something other than who or what they are — and these reasons must be fully explored. Kids are not equipped to make the decision to transition, nor is it appropriate for adults to make that decision for them. Let the kids make the decision for themselves AS ADULTS. Even then, there are no guarantees. GenderTrender has published a letter from a gay man who fairly recently wanted to transition, but who changed his mind — and he is an adult. https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/08/24/letter-to-gendertrender-from-a-gay-man/
I don’t need to do anything some stranger on the Internet tells me to do. Because I get to determine how I will behave and what my actions will be.
And if you think that I am abusive? You should really get out more.
To clarify, by “abusive isolation” I mean the “unplugging” recommendations floated around here. I realize now my words could be read as claiming katiesan has done it, which does not appear to be the case. However if she finds a reparative therapist, for example one who insists on enforcing the use of “she”, this would also be probable child abuse and involvement of child protection, as well as licensing authorities for the therapist, would be appropriate.
Also to sisgender: I will of course use whatever pronouns you prefer me to use for you. The way you want to interact with the world is your choice alone. Your biology should not matter for me, it is in fact none of my business unless you choose to disclose it explicitly. (In fact you did, but this choice should not be presumed).
What the archaeologists or forensic analysts will say is simply not the point. The point is that nobody should be forced to perform a particular gender in any way, unless there is some strong overarching reason. And I do not buy the “class analysis” reason.
Here you go again with “calling in the authorities.” No one is isolating their child. Reducing exposure to the toxic rhetoric of ADULT transactivists (perhaps, like you?) who recruit kids online is what a sane world would call “responsible parenting.” Any parent with a brain knows that the Internet is not some fairy garden populated by friendly, mentally stable people who only have **other peoples’ children’s** best interests at heart.
Now, you’ve had your say, ramendik. You’ll excuse us while we get back to loving and protecting our children from people like you.
http://transgenderreality.com/
wow I guess poor kids are being “abused” because they don’t have smart phones and tablets to begin with, right? So was everyone born before smart phones I guess. You know people can still talk face to face and that parents have grounded their kids from specific company since time began? You have a creepy need to talk to other peoples children, clearly. Their parents know them best, not you.
Ramendik, have you ever heard of BIID (body integrity identity disorder)? It’s a kind of body dysphoria in which a person feels the he or she is a disabled person in an able bodied person’s body. It’s a very powerful feeling, and the people who suffer from it will often go to extreme routs to ensure that their bodies match their perception of themselves, and it mirrors transsexuality a lot!
Much like transsexuality, some in the medical community have actually advocated giving BIID persons the amputations and whatnot that they crave, as research suggests that this is the only way to alleviate their symptoms.
Most of us would probably not allow our kids to chop off their hands or feet, or to have surgery done that would render them paralyzed and dependent on US for their daily needs. It would be considered abuse. How is transsexuality different?
Hi 4th Wave.
I find your writing to be very insightful and smart.
There is plenty of medical evidence that physical castration in boys results in strange proportions like a short torso with unusually long limbs due to the bone growth that is affected by hormones. There are also cases of precocious puberty where the bone growth far exceeds the physical age, with the epiphyses (sp ?) closing prematurely, resulting in a short stocky adult. Have you encountered any information with regards to bone growth and kids taking puberty blocking drugs ? I haven’t read anything that mentions this. Even a 1930’s medical textbook mentions the effects of castration/precocious puberty on the skeletal system ? I have been wondering about this as another disastrous outcome for “trans” kids ?
I know there is some clinical literature on precocious puberty and the effect of Lupron on bones. This is not an area I’ve researched heavily yet, but I welcome any and all comments and information on this from you and other readers. I know the gender doctors often claim the blockers are “safe” due to their prior use for precocious puberty but I also understand there are many unanswered questions regarding safety.
I don’t have a medical background, but I am interested in medical history, and medical ethics. I wish I had the knowledge to contribute about this, but I am only a casual reader of these materials. There are so many unanswered questions about the new medical industry of transsexuality. Who was the first doctor who thought that the construction of a “neo- vagina” (nothing like an actual vagina)was acceptable medical practice ? While institutions like Johns Hopkins abandoned GRS – why are other branches of medicine, psychiatry and psychology willing to encourage what I see as a serious delusion ?
I can’t begin to comprehend how a medical professional – with 8+ years of education – can accept a middle aged man’s statement of his “femininity”. Late transitioners typically have a successful life as a man, with many age and socially appropriate milestones like a stable work history, often in a heavily male field, married women, and fathered children. I would suspect that the inverse profile would more strongly indicate some kind of “true” transsexual – a man who was very awkward, with many social and professional failures due to the discomfort, dysphoria, etc. and no milestones like relationships, marriage, etc. and a real interest in women and women’s accomplishments, history, etc.
I think it is just nuts that children and their colluding parents are being medicalized as trans on some extremely slim ?symptoms? I feel sad, confued, worried that many young women who resist the conventional forms of “femininity” want to embrace the most dubious aspects of male performance as trans in irreversible and untested (pharmaceutical, surgical)ways. Are early transitioners going to be the new thalidomide scandal ? All we can do is wait and see.
Ladies, I feel your pain. I share your frustration and discomfort with the current “trans” mindset and political agenda. Yes it most certainly feels like we have all been unwillingly flushed down the proverbial rabbit hole into that irrational upside down world where “men” get pregnant and “women” have penises.
IMHO, at least 95% of those “identifying” as “trans” are being poorly served by the current “trans*-oriented” med/psychl/phama industrial complex. As many here have already pointed out, there is clearly a well financed and organized pro-trans agenda being proliferated. My question is by whom, and more importantly, why? Can it be that people, the health industry “professionals” are so self-centered and driven by their own personal self interest that they can close their hearts and minds to the damage that is being done not only to our young, but to society as a whole?
It’s hard to understand how the doctors and therapists live with the cognitive dissonance. I have to believe that many of these professionals believe they are doing the right thing, but the whole basis of transition, particularly for children, is based on fatally flawed and/or flimsy research. The ones who do see the truth about this need to step forward and give each other courage to question and resist.
At the present moment there are a couple of billionaire transsexuals (Jennifer Pritzker and Martine Rothblatt) in the USA who are funding not only the children’s hospitals, but community support groups and political campaigns. I am writing a blog post to this effect, and I hope to make direct links clear….in the past there was Reed Erickson, a FtoM trans-identified who financed Harry Benjamin, the man who started the whole process in USA. This funding led to the development of WPATH ( the group of semi-professionals who are setting standards for treatment which hospital gender clinics and family doctors are following ) after a couple of permutations. Erickson Foundation published booklets and pushed the idea…my sibling was himself a victim of this group, and had a sex change operation in 1975.
These days as the AIDS epidemic in the gay community in the USA is largely seen as “under control” in the white, wealthy gay community, the groups who provided funding for the education, treatment an support for the AIDS are looking actively to keep the funding pipeline open so as to maintain their jobs, and are putting forward stats on the rise of AIDS transmission in the trans-identified community, essentially the second at-risk group who has sex with at-risk men. And misleading stats on suicide and violence against the trans-identified community. These wealthy white rich men have a lot of money to launder through foundations and off-set taxes through charity, and have become sympathetic to the translobby.
I have many rough pages of research to link these rich white men to their foundations, and to hospitals, etc.. Soon I will put it all together, with notes and links to research…….
I’m not here to cause any arguments, nor to have my personal life and beliefs dragged forth and ridiculed (the reasons I tend to keep away from anything related to trans or feminist politics or subjects in which people are heavily personally invested). The motivation for my comment is simply because I feel I have a perspective which may help some people/mothers here and which also is pretty much NEVER heard.
What I think personally (based on my observations of people and life), is that when all is said and done it may be more helpful in the long term for a young (potential) “Trans” person who is pursuing hormones and surgery to NOT have familial support.
When I say that what I mean is not just be un-supportive of the persons “trans” aspirations, but rather, unsupportive of that person completely.
No support for food, college fund, clothes, accommodation, cars, finances etc etc.
Withdraw parental support completely.
Now, this is a rather extreme approach and yes, it has potential to cause much pain and loss for you as a parent, it’s dangerous, however, I’m someone who has come to understand the fortitude a person requires not just to complete the medical process, but also to navigate and survive life afterward.
My belief is that that fortitude cannot be learned, it is something someone either has or does not have right from the outset.
If the individual has it, then with or without the help and support of their parents, they’ll do what they must, and make a life and get on with living it in the end.
If they don’t, then I don’t really believe there is much you can do to help or change them in the path that they’re on, they’ll “snap out of it” as soon as things get tough, and your son or daughter will come home (as it were)
OR!
Worst case, they’ll continue to be swayed by their peers, they’ll make a mess of themselves and their lives and once they realise they have (if you did a good job as a parent when they were a child and made them feel loved no matter what) they’ll come back to you for help to try and piece their life back together, or alternatively (if they didn’t feel loved and supported as a child) they’ll probably end their own life.
The privilege of making ones own choices must bring with it an understanding of accountability, and accountability cannot be learned if mommy and daddy are there to catch them all the time, and kiss their scraped knees.
Life is not easy and it’s not “fair”.
Just my $.02
However I admit that I am no-one of consequence.
I wish you all, and your loved ones peace and happiness.
That is not something I’d ever be willing to do. I can’t imagine that going in any sort of positive direction.
Oh, I should add that if and when they do get through the medical and surgical process, and start to move on with their lives, at that point you should put yourself aside and do all that you can to actively establish a relationship with your child as their new sex.
Be sure to tell them why you’ve done as you have, and that it was NOT that you did not “believe” them, but simply that the most you believed you could do to help them was to let them learn their own way without your hurt and anger on their conscience at a time when you knew they’d have to be under tremendous pressure.
Thank you thank you thank you. I couldn’t even read all of the comments as I was just so ecstatically happy to be reading these posts. My 15 year old daughter came to us 6 months ago to tell us she is gender-fluid. Now she says she is transgender. She has a group of friends who are all gender-questioning and it seems the cool thing to do. We get her in therapy and, after just 10 visits, the therapists agrees with her. And while speaking with the therapist of my concerns, I felt shamed, like I had no right to have concerns. I will continue to support my daughter, but I will tell her that I will question everything and that there will be no medical intervention done until she is an adult. Thank you again. I am going to keep reading now, but I just couldn’t contain my elation at finding something that dared to question the Kumbayah mentality of the trans world.
So glad you found us. Let us know how you and your daughter are faring as time goes on. We are all learning from each other here. As you point out so clearly, anyone who thinks this isn’t a fad is simply not paying attention. There are some therapists who are starting to speak out. I will have a guest post from one of them posted shortly. Keep strong, CSM.
The way that psychologists are operating in this area reminds me of the recovered memory stuff from several decades ago. Which, as we all know, was complete hogwash and ruined many lives.
I’ll be damned if I’m letting these idiots ruin my family. My kid may pursue this once she’s an adult, but the only research which is solid is that she won’t. I’m not going against the odds when it comes to the integrity of my child’s healthy body. No matter how many letters someone has after his or her name.
Hang tough, csm.
All right, don’t touch the body, but why do you need to insist on the child acknowledging being a woman? Why “she is a she”? What’s the big value in that, apart from ideological stuff that really should not impact the lives of children?
Biology is not “ideology.” It is objective reality. The “ideological stuff” that is impacting the lives of OUR (not your) children is the narrative you’re pimping. THAT is what makes kids worry about their “gender identity” instead of just living their lives, growing, and realizing they are **already whole** without the intrusions of “gender specialists” and their minions.
Check out the blog Gender Trender too. I first started reading it this past July. A wealth of disturbing information. You’ll need to learn about the autogynephiles, who are sexual fetishes. And who’s thing has been driving transgender and before that transsexualism from the start. And who’s objectives and ideas about themselves have nothing in common with teenage girls. And they are where the idea of “changing your sex” came from. It’s quite horrifying.
Just got off the phone with a therapist I was interviewing for my child who laughed at me when I wasn’t telling a joke. I ended the call curtly, and hung up. She called back and started to lecture me on how I needed to be in therapy and how my child needed to be on hormone blockers and get into the gender program at a local hospital. When I asked her how she could so blatantly diagnose my kid who she’s never met over the phone, she called me a transphobe.
Fantastically professional.
Holy crap Katiesan! You need to start recording those. And report them to their professional society.
Also how did she get your phone number? Did she take advantage of the fact your number was in her call log? That’s very dubious even if you’re not a psychotherapist. She sounds like she’ll bully anyone. Not just ‘naughty’ parents.
I think you’ve just experienced the pseudo-left wing version of ‘reparative therapy’, viz the anti-gay kind. 😟
She got my number because I called her and left a message to “interview” her and she was returning that call.
I think we are just going to wing this for a while. If you don’t subscribe to the Newspeak, you get called a transphobe and a bigot.
And, again, knowing there is a community of other parents who are in the same position does make it more bearable. As I was telling my husband, “We aren’t crazy. We aren’t imagining that the therapeutic community is behaving in a monolithic and uncritical fashion. And we’re not wrong to want to go WITH the odds instead of rush to consign our kid to a lifetime of injections and the risk of surgeries.”
I think we’re only going to see more of this kind of railroading by therapists, unfortunately. The new guidelines issued by the APA will make it more difficult for thoughtful professionals to look more deeply at what’s going on with young people, rather than immediately taking them at their word that they are “trans,” and that’s it. Therapists who want to buck the narrative are going to need to start talking with each other and figure out how to push back. Yesterday, I saw a negative comment on a pro-transition blog about Lane’s thoughtful piece (link below) that said, without irony, “I go to see a therapist for emotional support, not their clinical judgment.” Therapists are being encouraged to simply follow a party line and not exercise critical thinking. This is a disaster in the making. Challenging a client’s thoughts and disorted self image is a major part of what psychotherapy used to be about.
http://4thwavenow.com/2015/08/22/exiles-in-their-own-flesh-a-psychotherapist-speaks/
katiesan, you might as well wing it and trust yourself, since a lot of psych research is apparently … not worth the journal paper it’s written on. seriously. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/28/science/many-social-science-findings-not-as-strong-as-claimed-study-says.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=0
It makes me nuts that they all assume that it’s ‘phobia’ being expressed by people who are wary of irreversible medical treatments with a nebulous track record for safety and efficiency. It’s like saying people who don’t want to give their kids a lot of milk filled with growth hormones and antibiotics are ‘dairy phobic.’ It’s all …. “hey, trust us, we’re professionals and we know what we’re doing.” (Uh, yeah, that’s what you said to all those women you prescribed HRT to, back in the day, too. Right? and those guys who came to you begging for Androgel? these things worked out SO well, yeah?)
I’m not SCARED of da trans. I don’t have IRRATIONAL DISLIKE of da trans. What I do have is a healthy skepticism of bandwagonish behavior by people in the med/pharma business, based on a lifetime of watching other stories unfold. Smart people can be really wrong. Well-meaning people can be really wrong. Stuff that has a low percentage of happening can happen. Side effects that are supposedly ‘rare’ — yeah, those can happen, too.
I’m old, people, to have a teen kid. And I’m not phobic about the possibility that she will want to transition. But I a deeply worried about the long-term health effects of that choice, physical and emotional, if she elects to make it. I’m wary enough, untrusting enough, that … this is one of the decisions she is going to have to make for herself, when she legally can. (Which is still way too soon for my tastes but soon I will not have much choice in the matter, other than coercive use of the wallet.)
If my kid is a lesbian, that is cool w/me. And if you could come to me with data that really shows the transing is not going to take a decade or two off her life, leave her with unwanted side effects, and be good enough so that she thinks sterility and a lifelong tight relationship with medical providers is cool — then I’d say OK to that, too. It’s not the damn trans concept that I’m against, the transness of being trans. (I’m dubious, but …. it’s not any kind of moral thing with me.) It is the murky long-term health effects that concern me, no end.
And for these psychs to just act like any opposition for any reason is the gender equivalent of homophobia — yeah, that is bang-your-head-against-the-wall stuff.
Katiesan – This really disturbed me, especially because right now I’m in a tricky situation with a therapist. I didn’t do the phone interview like you did, but I did ask a little how she goes about her therapy. The therapist is a lesbian, so I thought that my daughter would maybe identify with her. However, my daughter just told my mom that her therapist is on her side and that empowers her more. My daughter turning 18 in the spring and my mom has college money for her. Just recently, my mother and I agreed that the money will be given on the condition that she waits until she graduates from college to start any medical changes (hopefully buying time for her to change her mind).
I am suffering a lot with this and I think you are right to check out the therapist before you send her. Now I have to decide whether to stop the therapy or just allow her to go since at least she has someone to talk to and it seems to have calmed her down a bit.
Good luck, I hope you find someone you can trust.
this reminds me about when my family went for counselling back in 1968 for my brother who was creating a lot of problems in the family home. apparently the therapist knew that my brother had this idea about sex change. she did not tell us. even i was hauled in for sessions, as a 12 year old. all she wanted to focus on was the problems in my parents’ marriage. we were so confused and hurt. it left a really bad vibe in the home. it was harmful. i do not know where some of these people get off…..and i used ot work in mental health. so really, i do know. many have so few original ideas that they follow the trendiest fad around. every kid is autistic, every person has repressed memory and multiple personality. i checked out the therapists for my college age daughter after she was witness to a mass school shooting and suffered PTSD. i vetted this women, looked into her background, and asked her not to use EMDR Eye Movement Desensitization and Rehabilitation. it has not been proven and is controversial. guess what? she used it, contrary to my explicit instructions. she then left my daughter hanging over the christmas break by not retuning to her office, ever! and told nobody!! my daughter, at school out of town, was lost and floundered without support. i threatened to report her to her provincial association when she refused to turn over her notes to my daughter’s new psychiatrist. she handed them over and i washed my hands of her!! go to the local licensing board to complain…or even threaten them. last thing they want is to be investigated. good luck.
This is to sisgendered. First off, I’ve been following your description of the horrors your brother/sister has and is going through, so excellent screenname! 😊 My God the horrible things that have happened to your family! And it’s sounding unfortunately like you could write a book on crappy, incompetent psychiatric care. I always enjoy reading your posts.
PS yeah that eye movement “therapy” jazz? It’s total crap.
I can commiserate with you on this. Therapist #1 (seeing #2 now) told our daughter I was misinformed about the transgender scientific research I was sharing with her. My daughter told me that I shouldn’t believe everything I read on the Internet (yep, she completely missed the irony).
The therapist told our daughter that she was a professional and knew best. That she wanted to include us parents in the next therapy session so that she could “set us straight.” Anyway, we chose to stop the sessions since paying the therapist to affirm our daughter’s misguided belief was ridiculous. Thought this was doing more harm than good.
I wish everyone luck.
Hey man, I’ve read a ton of your articles on trans issues and I just have to say that this really hits home for me. I’m a male(still male) and, not to get too explicit, have had sexual fantasies about stereotypical femininity(wearing women’s clothing, being degraded, shamed, feeling like a “sissy”, etc) since I was around 10, my first sexual experience being in my mother’s dress at 12 without even realizing there was an orgasm. The more I got off to this stuff, the more ashamed I’ve felt, it’s caused me much social anxiety, etc. You also have the whole Bruce Jenner thing which was a BIG part of the trigger for me.
Ever since this year(now 21), I’ve been questioning why I feel so “submissive” sexually, I then decided to make the biggest mistaske of my life and post on this cultish subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/. They literally added so much fire to my confusion flame, the pressure they put on me was immense. I can only imagine how a younger version of myself would’ve reacted to such comments. Almost every post I see there of some confused guy or girl like me is met with “yeah, you’re trans”.
I’ve always believed the idea of having a “female brain” to be moronic at best in all honesty. I’ve never been dysphoric, though I have had a history of manic depression, anxiety and OCD(which they’d want me to believe is caused by “dysphoria”).
Anyway, I’m more than freaked out to seek help over my “issue” because I don’t want someone to tell me that I’ll “have” to transition. It seems like there is no therapy for people like me, who don’t want to take life altering hormones, and just want to become content with themselves.
The people on that subreddit will have me believe that there is no “cure” for “dysphoria” and that lots of trans people started exactly the way I have. Anyway, I’ve gotten a lot less obsessive over the past few weeks. I’ve been trying to tell myself that there’s nothing wrong with being submissive, does that mean I’m trans anything? no. I’ve been allowing my thoughts to flow, accepting them, and it’s cleared up SO much of my anxiety.
Anyway, I’m gonna continue to read your articles, as they very much peak my interest. Knowledge is power.
Good job of thinking for yourself. Good job of protecting your body. Good job putting down the Koolaid. The ppl who post here will be cheering you on. Come share your views any time. Wishing you all the best.
Jeff – It’s good to hear that people your age are starting to question. I can only hope that my daughter will begin to question soon. Check out this post on GenderTrender from a gay man and read all the comments. I think that will empower you, too. https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/08/24/letter-to-gendertrender-from-a-gay-man/
Thanks for sharing. Always glad to hear that another person has been “rescued.” from the trans madness. Cheering you on!
Best of luck to you Jeff! Thanks for reconfirming how creepy-ass reddit can be. You’re 21? Every year for the next say 20, sex will become a less and less significant thing in your life. Other stuff, way more interesting stuff, will happen. You’re coming off the teen years when we all think sex is everything. And that we have to be ‘good at it’ in a completely undefined way such that any asshat can make us feel that we’re bad at it. And for the record no you are not “trans”. The more I learn about the origins of so-called transsexualism the more it seems to be something a couple psychologists at John Hopkins in the 60s just pulled out of their ear. Whatever is going on with you sexually that’s no reason to mutilate your body. Be well. 😊
I’m going to try my best to avoid negativity, but when I see guys in their forties, with the same sexual kink I have. I can’t help but think that I’m doomed and that the urges will become stronger and stronger. Bruce Jenner even went through the same sexual kink that I have before he came to his conclusion :(. Gender noncompliance is a good place to start for me. Using hormones and accepting becoming sterile, etc, nah. I’ll take coping.
You might want to see a psychiatrist and get some prescription medication for anxiety and possibly OCD-tendencies. My daughter has underlying psychiatric issues, and prescription medication has been life-altering in a good way for all of us. Also, as someone under a LOT of stress, you might want to begin a meditation practice. There are lots of apps out there. I use Headspace, which is simple and flexible. I don’t think meditation is a cure-all, but it is helpful to learn to sit and be mindful and stop valuing yourself as only a vessel for your thoughts.
Unfortunately, in the current climate, and from personal experience, I would urge you NOT to pursue therapy. Especially if you want to be accepting of your body AND your gender-non-conforming practices? Current practitioners will not be able to process that. In my experience, they’re just redditers in real life space, in regard to anything in the general ballpark of transgender stuff.
Best of luck to you.
“Reddit in real life space”. Perfect! That psychotherapy is so ad hoc and underregulated is an additional problem with this whole mess. Or should I say fad?
“Trans” teen 1: So what’s your therapist like?
“Trans” teen 2: Man, she’s so cool. She’s like Reddit!
😖
Yeah, I’m under an extreme amount of stress and pressure right now. It just sucks knowing where the rabbit hole leads for people like me. I have actually heard great things about mindfulness and am for sure going to try practicing unbiased thoughts.
The isolation I feel is absurd. Knowing that MOST “therapists” I see are only going to equate my thoughts to me being a “woman” and try to ease me into hormones or transition. It sucks that there isn’t help out there for people like me who don’t wanna conform to this crap.
Hey, maybe in 10 years or so, after this whole transgender thing becomes more known, there will be more forms of non- permanent, life altering therapy. The studies on hormone treatment are foggy at the absolute best.
Though, I do think that the whole “who wears what clothing” could use some changing. I have a feeling that if men felt as though they could still be men and wear a skirt in public, or pink, the need for them to make permanent changes to their bodies would probably diminish substantially. Lots of pressure is put on us guys to show no emotion at all, only aggression. I have a strong feeling that for some, like me who felt they couldn’t conform to that, we’ve developed a sort of innate coping mechanism, a coping mechanism that eventually consumes us.
Anyway, thanks. I’m going to try and cope with myself to do whatever it takes to sustain my beliefs. Like I said, I’ve always found the statement of having a “female” or “male” brain to sound very stupid. As if the female brain knows what clothes to wear from birth and is naturally more submissive. I’m really not trying to sound like I’m full of self hatred, but I am just so frustrated at the lack of treatment options.
I have to be my own doctor.
Jeff, not sure if you are familiar with the blogs ThirdWayTrans and ReTransition but they may be helpful. Both are de-transitioned men trying to cope in life. I wish you luck on your quest for healing.
Hey, Jeff, hope you’re still around here. Just wondering how you’re doing and wishing you well.
I’m going to be honest in saying that I’m doing much worse than before. Again, I hate to be explicit, but my “fantasies” are evolving and becoming an even more incredibly powerful fixation, a part of me. It started small and bloomed into almost a “need”. These fantasies have seeped into my everyday life.
I’ve pretty much not gone outside from the month I posted that. Living life is becoming an extreme hassle for me. I’m not sure if therapy would even help me at this point, but I did manage to acquire medicine for my OCD today.
Seems like I’m going down the path of denial and shame like many others though, kinda sad, but whatever.
Jeff, one of my other daughters (not the one who is identifying as trans) was just diagnosed with OCD and social anxiety disorder and depression. I hope your psychiatrist or doctor told you it will take time for medication to start to feel like it’s working and also it may take quite a while to hit upon the correct dose(s) and types of meds which work best for you. Don’t despair! With our other daughter, we’re still tinkering with her meds because her constant depression is still affecting her and she feels SO MUCH better that she’s aiming for feeling even better on a daily basis.
Along with puzzled, wishing you well and want you to know that others here are supportive and concerned about how you’re doing.
Thanks katie, I honestly appreciate this communities concern for me. Just the fact that someone asked how I was doing after about a month makes me feel pretty good, like I’m at least getting some support.
I’m then confused by every community on the internet. You have some saying “it’s just a fetish”, some saying “it’s a deeper psychology you must embrace”, etc. Hearing these things have DEEPLY caused me to obsess and question my own identity.
Living like this has been super hard for me, but I honestly hope that these meds give me a little bit more control over myself and my impulses. I was once a happy, outgoing guy, until I heard all of this filth from the confused trans community. I hope I can go back to being who I was, ugh.
Sorry you have not been doing well. It sounds like you feel your own behavior is obsessive and intrusive, and good OCD meds may be able to mitigate that. I hope in the weeks to come you will be feeling better. hang in there.
I recently sought help/advice from someone who specializes in trans issues. After one hour of talking to her she was pushing blockers, therapy, pride groups, etc. My son is not interested. At this point he merely cross dresses in female undergarments in private. He did not express a desire to become a woman, but rather finds the idea “a turn on”. I barely told her what he said and what he was doing and she determined he has been suffering for years with this (he is 13, so we aren’t talking too long anyway). He is not suffering. She was more interested in her ideology than listening to the details of our individual situation. I am terrified to think what could have happened if I had walked into her office uninformed. I have not been able to find anyone else to talk to who knows about this (other than on the Internet). I do have another therapist, but she knows nothing about this and changes the subject every time I bring it up. I support my son whatever he decides or needs, but I don’t want him to be pushed into anything drastic for the wrong reasons. I feel like I won’t get honest information from providers. This stresses me out.
write to the actor/comedian Izzy Izzard. he might be a great role model. i am sure that he would write back because i just write to people with questions, and it is amazing how they respond to personal and not commercial questions….he cross-dresses, but it is not a bigger issue for him than just clothes. or so he says….there seems to be no issue here, he’s fine with it, unless there are complicating behaviours. it just may be his eroticism. is it escalating? does he involve others? is it you who is disturbed by it? or is he? a good therapist would go to a supervisor to get training on the issue…try a pschyo-analyst, not a therapist. they may have different training. good luck.
Yes, I’m disturbed by it. I know on an intellectual level it’s not a huge deal. He isn’t hurting people or himself. He is well behaved. He has talked with me about it. What more could I ask for? I don’t know. I guess I just don’t know how to process it. It does not help that I’ve got my own issues that are confounding my ability to deal with it. It’s one thing to talk about this when it’s not your child. It is another when it is your child.
And I am terrified at the thought of him doing something drastic to his body. I can’t fathom how it would help anything. I will always support him no matter what, but I don’t know how I’d be able to come to terms with that.
People keep assuming he might be leaving stuff out. Like what? I think he has told me stuff that would be incredibly hard to tell a parent. What else could he be leaving out? I’ve asked him if he wants to be a girl. He only says he is aroused by the idea or likes to imagine himself as the girl in a sexual experience. He has no desire to wear a dress, change his name, etc. But then I read about people who do go to extremes for this feeling. That scares me because I can’t imagine how it would really help.
Sorry if I’m being offensive to anyone. It is not my intention. This has not been easy.
And not that I don’t recognize actors as real people, but I don’t exactly look to them as role models either. They are putting on an act for one thing. I do not encourage my kids to consider them role models.
I don’t know anything about this actor, but I will say this: many young people are immersed in celebrity culture. If I knew of a good actor/singer what-have-you celebrity who I thought was a good role model, and who I thought my daughter might look up to, I’d probably encourage it. Not because I don’t see how superficial it all is, but because teen culture is…pretty superficial.
so sorry to have suggested that…i can understand your concerns about celebrities. izzard has been very open about his transvestism, but does not sensationalize it. good luck to you.
Oh I get “speaking” to them with a language they relate to. I do do that. But he isn’t into TV or movies (his choice).
Stumbled upon your note today. Thank you for renewing my sense of kindness, fair play, and vindication. Perhaps we could get something done collectively. – worried doc
“First, Do No Harm”: The Gender Dysphoria Hustle
I am surprised and dismayed to find myself having to write this letter. I am a physician, having practiced for forty years as a specialist in primary care medicine. As such, I would occasionally have patients who would complain of “being in the wrong body”, not being comfortable with who they are, or similar concerns. Having no way in my practice to evaluate or deal at all with this constellation of symptoms, I would refer them to what I presumed was appropriate psychiatric care.
I have a very difficult teenage son. He has been treated for mental health issues for a number of years without improvement, and has also attended multiple residential psychiatric facilities where he was tagged with diagnoses including anxiety and depression with intermittant suicidal tendencies. What has emerged more recently and prominently is his expressed desire to become a woman, with the threat of suicide if he is thwarted in doing so. I would bring this up to his therapists, who simply washed their hands of it, stating that they don’t treat this problem and suggesting he move on to someone else who does.
My first experience with a therapist who deals with “gender dysphoria”– the state of one’s self-perceived gender being incongruent with one’s natal biology– was alarming. Her suggestion was to immediately start my son on a lifelong regimen of cross-sex hormones and prepare him for multiple surgeries, including chondrolaryngoplasty (scalpular scraping of the thyroid cartilage to reduce the size of the Adam’s Apple) and a procedure described to me simply as “down below”, in order to feminize him as quickly as possible. I later learned that “down below”, or “bottom surgery”, is a polite, casual euphemism for a bilateral orchiectomy (surgical castration) and penile inversion vaginoplasty: the skinning and removal of the penis, with the empty flap of penile and scrotal skin inverted into a newly-made body cavity to create a “neovagina”. These recommendations were all made during the first visit, with no further insight given as to the nature or cause of the situation at hand. I was, however, referred along to a doctor “who knows that stuff” at a major medical facility. Upon arriving at that office, I was met with a friendly physician’s assistant who performed a physical exam on my son, after which we were promptly instructed on how to proceed. Very little of the discussion was regarding diagnosis or etiology; the risks, benefits, and side effects of the proposed treatment went largely unaddressed. He was to be started on estrogen at this stage, despite there being only the most superficial of clinical work-ups required for the diagnosis of gender dysphoria. The diagnosis was based almost entirely on the self-reported say-so of my troubled 15-year-old son.
My son was not advised, nor was I, regarding the frequency and treatment of complications arising from male-to-female transgender hormone therapy. This off-label administration of hormones to children was foreign to me, though as a doctor I knew the names of the drugs involved, and I also knew their possible side effects: deep vein thrombophlebitis, permanent infertility, polycythemia, pulmonary embolism, and death. The issue of infertility was raised by myself, concerned about the risk of my son becoming sterile and therefore having no chance to have a family of his own one day. All care at the facility prescribing his cross-sex hormone treatment was provided by a PA; I never saw a physician. I have scoured the medical literature and found little legitimate science regarding the medical treatment of pediatric gender dysphoria, the long-term outcomes of such treatment, or the sudden, recent groundswell of young people diagnosed with this previously-uncommon condition: so much speculation, so many unanswered questions, so few studies.
I took an oath with my medical degree. It states, “first, do no harm”. I wrestle with that oath daily: advised of my son’s suicidal ideation– which, I was told, will only increase in severity if his feminization treatments are denied– his gender therapist told me he was “better a live girl than a dead boy”, and what parent could possibly disagree? And yet, as a doctor, I know what these drugs can do. When the time comes for my son’s sex reassignment surgeries, I– and he– will have to contend with another set of potentially life-threatening complications, including the possibility of a rectovaginal fistula, a hole between the neovagina and rectum that can require the use of a colostomy bag, and can also result in infection and death. I can only hope that the day will come when my child, and other children faced with gender dysphoria, will have safe, legal guidelines and regulations for the treatment of their dysphoria, and that those laws will be based on quality, unbiased scientific studies. This brave new world of radical, life-changing gender reassignment for children too young to drive or vote seems all too much like the Wild West.
As I write this letter, there is a study underway regarding the hormonal treatment of pediatric gender dysphoria, yet with tremendous conflicts of interest throughout: at least a few of the doctors running the study are, or have been, employed as consultants by the pharmaceutical companies that manufacture the hormones being used. Is this why my son was seemingly sped through the process of diagnosis and prescription, hustled into hormones? There remain far more questions than answers. Yes, there is now a study, but the terrible irony is that one of the study’s subjects is my own son.
Worried doc, thank you for writing here, and sorry to hear about your son. I am going to highlight your comment in an upcoming post. Please feel free to comment here frequently. I hope that you and other medical professionals will find a way to make your voices heard.
This is terrifying. I mentioned this already, but before the end of one session with a therapist specializing in gender dysphoria, she was already pushing drastic measures on my 13 year old. I barely gave her any details. I also mentioned there are a large number of family members with mental health issues. That was dismissed as a having any relevance. When I asked questions and later refused to comply she accused me of not being a good parent. She attempted to manipulate and bully me into forcing him into these treatments, including e-mailing me three times after I very matter of fact canceled a second appointment.
At this point in time I am not seeing any signs of mental health issues in my son, but he is only 13 for one thing. At least at this point, I can stay away from these crazy providers. I did not go back to that therapist. Of course now that leaves me with nobody to talk to about it. I refuse to let them even talk to my kid because I do not want them putting these insane ideas into his head.
I am going to share this story with my son. I told him I will always support him whatever he decides in the future, but that he should be aware of side affects, outcomes, etc. That he may not be given that information when/if he goes looking for help.
I’m disgusted by the experimentation that is taking place on children in the name of some half baked ideology.
sorry doc. welcome to the ‘brave new world’ of insanity, where ‘first do no harm’ is trumped by teen assertions and that suicide stat that is not even based on an intelligent reading of the stats. (poke around 4thwavenow and you’ll find more.)
I blame the psych/medical/pharma industry for this rush to provide treatment that is not based on good science and that isn’t even shown to be particularly beneficial emotionally in the long run. Your peers have capitulated to a social agenda that seems oh-so-concerned about the kids but in reality doesn’t give a shit if the long-term health aspects of this stuff are murky at best. Just give the kids what they want so you can be progressive. (Not ‘you’ personally, you understand. The collective industry ‘you.’)
Your kid says they ‘feel like a woman’ or ‘feel like a man’ in conflict with their biology? Don’t discuss, don’t explore, just say, ‘here’s your hormones.’ (When I see comments on social media assuring the public that this is such a careful decision, undertaken only after thorough exploration, especially with minors? I howl, internally. I’ve read too many stories like yours. ‘Care’ is the opposite of what is happening, here. The general public has NO idea of what is happening. Zero.)
So those of us who would actually like some decent quality therapy — for our kids, for ourselves — we’re left twisting in the wind. In my state, any kind of therapy for gender issues that could remotely be construed to point to efforts to help a kid achieve some sort of peace with the natal body is now illegal. Conflated with reparative/conversion therapy for homosexuals. (Nevermind that a lot of these kids have mental health issues that were going on before they got the idea they might be the opposite gender. You can’t explore those now, unless you also sign on to the early-transition train. You can’t raise the possibility that maybe the gender stuff is a coping mechanism for other stuff. You can’t raise the possibility that the incessant pushing in social media and other media might have something to do with these kids’ idea that they are actually the opposite sex.)
When I read stories like yours, doc, I feel nothing but despair. I do deeply believe that eventually this tide will turn, when these kids are old enough to speak out on their own behalf, and when the long-term health issues begin to emerge because they must. It took a lot of years for the problems of, say, HRT for menopause symptoms to emerge. I’m afraid it’s going to take a lot of years for this story to play out, too. And some of our kids are going to be victims, despite our efforts to protect them and inform them and guide and counsel them, and make sure any consent is actually INFORMED by some presentation of the health risks that goes beyond the cursory review offered by the gender clinics.
I hope in a year or two I’m not here writing a post like yours. I am deeply worried that this is, in fact, what is coming for our family.
This is so terrible. I am so sorry. It sounds like your son was never actually diagnosed with ‘gender dysphoria’ at all! And a physicians assistant?!
As for why this is happening, it’s an ideology. Transgenderism. It has its own evidence-free version of the supposed disease of gender dysphoria and then certain medical people and psychologists make this their hobbyhorse. They see what they’re doing as heroic. And like any fanatic their motto is No Bad News. All of the horror stories plus just normal caution are ignored. And there are ‘trans activists’ who, especially online, go around saying anyone who asks even the most normal, basic questions is a bigot. You know like gay bashers or the Klan. Which of course reinforces the lack of questioning. The other thing within the medical profession is that the only people who will touch sex change stuff with a 10 foot pole are then these fanatics. I’m sure lobotomy was like this too. Oh and a lot of the general public seem to have this whole phenomenon mixed up with gay teens and gay rights. Even though the transgender ideology is actually profoundly homophobic.
Oh! And there’s all this talk about if you don’t get these teens sex change operations they’ll commit suicide. Which is based on a bogus statistic in one crappy study. And there are other studies that show that most kids who are ‘gender nonconforming’ grow up to be gay. (I’m still entirely not clear on what is meant by ‘gender nonconforming’)
And yes, as you’ve noticed, though gender dysphoria is supposedly a psychological condition they don’t do differentials. Teens with other mental health issues that predate the supposed gender dysphoria are not assessed as possibly having something else, having something else too, or having something else and their claims of feeling like the opposite sex are a coping mechanism for the something else. That highly likely scenario is completely ignored. Parents on this site have described that. The whole situation is a nightmare.
I wish you the very best of luck, for you and your son.
I don’t know if he has gotten information online about being transgender. Tumblr, reddit, and Youtube videos are often cited as helping convince kids. Medically transitioning is a lauded as a wonderful experience that will alleviate all of their problems.
Here is a link to the Transgender Reality blog that documents conversations (mainly from reddit) between confused teenagers and those that help convince them that they are transgender. Most of the dialogue is hard to stomach, but it conveys what your son may have been exposed to. http://transgenderreality.com/2015/04/17/just-tell-her-to-shut-the-fuck-up/
I wish you luck in finding what is best for your son.
Just wanted to say welcome to unrestricted, worrrieddoc and the other parents and professionals who have recently found 4th’s blog. Thank you all for sharing your stories. Every story told helps parents and medical/psychological professionals see there is another side to all this “oh yup he’s trans 100%, you must start him right away” nonsense. Telling your stories can help to turn the tide so that all kids will eventually get the best, most effective and humane treatment. Our numbers are growing and our collective voice is getting louder. We are spreading the word that transiitoning kids is not the casual process it is often made out to be, and perhaps not even the answer at all.
Incidentally, there are only a few “gender therapists” in my area, and interestingly, ALL of them are MTTs. Do they have an agenda? Maybe so – maybe no, but I’m not going to risk my kid’s health to find out.
What is “MTT”?
On another note, I wish I could do more. I am talking to a therapist, but she knows nothing about this and every time I bring it up she tries to change the subject. I think I’m making her uncomfortable with what I am telling her. Admittedly I probably come across as crazy for telling her some of this. I have another appointment, but that might be the last one because really it isn’t helping.
MTT is ‘male to trans,’ which is an acronym some radical feminists prefer to use to ‘MTF,’ or ‘male to female.’ Radfems often also generally use ‘FTT’ (female to trans) instead of ‘FTM’ (female to male) because the contention is that …. a natal female can’t really become a male, and vice versa.
So what ftmskeptic was saying was that all the local gender therapists are transwomen. (natal males, transitioned to female gender).
A lot of transmen (natal females, transitioned to male gender) seem OK with the FTM moniker; at least it is prevalent online, as is ‘transman.’ The transwomen generally insist on the term ‘transwoman’ or (often) just ‘woman.’ As in the oft-repeated mantra ‘transwomen are women.’ This is a major point of philosophical contention and the source of a whole lot of online yelling matches.
Has anyone found a good therapist? I would love a support group in line with my views on this. It seems the only sympathy I can get are among the ultra conservatives. Being an atheist, that is not going to work for obvious reasons. I wonder if anyone would be interested in some sort of private message support board. Or perhaps that already exists?
let’s do it…a closed group perhaps?
I would welcome a private message board. I have no one to talk to about all this. There is a support group in my area but I’ve never been because it is MTTs who run it, and they are too busy squeezing out validation for themselves and pushing kids and parents into the trans cult, rather than trying to actually help anyone — especially not a girl. Also, of course no questioning or skepticism is allowed.
Check your email later today.
Definitely closed. I’ll look around for hosting sites.
Please count me in.
I feel safe for the first time in months reading here.
I’ve been troubled from the first mention of “I don’t want to be a woman, I just want to be a kid” – not because of transphobia or homophobia but because I see the medicalization as dangerous and reckless not to mention, reinforcing the binary.
Thanks Puzzle. I try to be respectful of people’s wishes, but I don’t buy into the idea that someone can really change their sex. I wouldn’t rub their face in it, but yeah… I can’t believe the twists and turns this has taken since learning about it.
I joined a local trans support group. I wanted to ask around for therapists. I left shortly after joining because I wasn’t trying to “spy” or spew my thoughts. They had a photo section that was filled with pictures. These people all looked odd if I’m being brutally honest. I would never mistreat someone over it and I 100% support a person’s right to do whatever it is they want to their body (adults that is), but none of them looked like natal whatever it was they were trying to transition to. This is not like people on TV who do this who have all the money in the world to get the best cosmetic surgeries. I suspect this fact leaves a lot of them not feeling so great about the whole thing. Of course who could admit that to just anyone?
When thinking of my son, this thought kills me.
personally i prefer trans-identified male or female…that way it is clear that it is an identification and not a state of being…there is no way that a man can ever become a woman, but they can identify themselves as transgendered, or in the case of sexual organ modification, a person is a transsexual male or female
I don’t know (personally) the ins and outs of everybody’s legal system, but perhaps this may be interesting or even helpful to some
http://www.post-gazette.com/news/state/2015/09/06/Pennsylvania-sex-reassignment-surgery-fought-by-transgender-woman-s-parents/stories/201509060156
Well I hope if my kid does something like this I’ll just be dead by then. My objections aren’t even religious. I just think this treatment is questionable in terms of effectiveness.
I guess that depends on what exactly the person is actually trying to “treat” and what they’re hoping to achieve.
Personally I agree with you in most instances, I don’t think it’s a good idea at all for most.
Wow, just read the article that Rachel pasted a link for. And the three comments on it. People really do think that transgender is exactly the same as gay. And that people who disagree with it are exactly the same as creepy anti-gay bigots. Wow. Reasoning by metaphor. The judge in the case did however grant the stay and is doing a competency hearing. Good. Oh, and the article referred to the transgender wannabe by his made up female name/pronoun. 😕
This is something I absolutely do not understand. A person can walk into a medical/psychiatric establishment and be completely out of their mind and have a laundry list of mental health issues and their gender dysphoria is seen as unrelated. We aren’t allowed to call that nuts. And I often get the whole “well we once thought being gay was nuts” argument. Yes, but gay people don’t need to chop off their body parts to be gay. I’d probably get some diagnosis because I dare to question this stuff.
Thank you for your bluntness! Exactly. They treat gender dysphoria as if it’s this magically clear-cut thing. And is if we now no longer know that people who are experiencing emotional distress will quite unconsciously invent some thing that is “the problem” that really isn’t a problem at all. Everyone who is sad does that. at least for a while. We pretend it’s our job when it’s our relationship. We pretend it’s our a close friend being a jerk when it’s our health. And vice a versa.
And what you say about the gayness argument is exactly what I keep thinking. Gay people are just gay. They don’t need the medical establishment help them be gay. They knew who they were just like women 100 years ago who wanted to be doctors, and they get on with doing it. Asking the medical system to make you into your authentic self is just nuts. We’re up to our butts in psychobabble in this society but one of the few in insights that is actually valid, that people believe things about themselves to avoid their real problems, is totally out the window in the whole Transworld. It is nuts.
I just came across this blog and am so very grateful. I’m a left-wing bisexual hippie feminist (in an inter-racial marriage no less ;)) whose best friend of 25 years is starting FTT hormone therapy. This beloved person already has a lot more health issues than most people his age and I of course immediately worried (privately) about the health implications. Turned to the internet and found that even asking the question is taboo. And forget about asking the psycho/social questions! Suddenly I’m aligned with the Christian Right for the first time in my life? BS.
I went to a women’s college and now I understand they’ve removed “sisterhood” from their songs among other things. For some of us that sisterhood meant everything. Now it makes 2 members of the community feel left out so the rest of us are out of luck. (why go to a women’s college if you don’t want to be called a woman, you ask? BIGOT!)
Just wanted to say thank you for asking the questions and for providing the resources. I’m looking forward to digging into your blogroll.
I think people have the right to do what they wish with their bodies. I think we need a true discussion in order to best protect all trans people, ESPECIALLY the children who are making life-long decisions with a teenager’s (or younger) brain.
Glad you found us, Chris. What’s going on at women’s colleges is quite depressing. They have cancelled performances of “Vagina Monologues” because it’s considered “transphobic.” Please stick around and comment as often as you like.
Thank you, a thousand times over, for your voices. I have a 13 year old daughter who now says she is a “transboy,” and I’m struggling. My kid is high-functioning on the autism spectrum, with lots of sensory issues and a history of Asperger-y attributes (which, I’m convinced, are what’s behind a lot of her gender-nonconforming behavior – she just can’t quite master the social intricacies of girl groups). I’ve always supported her freedom in gender expression, and I’ve taken her for short haircuts and bought her boys’ clothes. But I will not allow an “expert” to suggest that my child start cross-sex hormones or consider body-altering surgery so early in her life.
My question is this: have any of you found mental health professionals who support your concerns? My kid has lots of issues that go along with her ASD, including anxiety and unstable moods. The therapist we have now (who is not a gender specialist) has suggested that we need to bring in someone with more expertise around gender, but when we first tried to do that we had a clinical psychologist talking to our kid about hormones after two sessions. We live near Boston, and I’m pretty wary of anyone who will come recommended by Dr. Spack’s clinic. I want to find someone who will really work with my daughter to unpack the multiple issues underneath this suddent claim of gender dysphoria. And it wouldn’t hurt to find a way to get my kid off Tumblr, either…
Beth, so many people who are in this online community share your concerns and experience. You will need to spend time screening potential therapists on the phone, and it’s well worth the effort. And selectively restricting Internet access, especially for a 13-year-old, is important. Other parents, more advice? Please let us know how it goes and contribute here as often as you like.
Unfortunately, no I have not found a supportive therapist. I either get someone who pushes blockers and LGBT teen groups or someone who knows nothing about this and suggests the blocker pushers. For now I don’t think my son needs therapy. And can I add, I think he could possibly be on the spectrum as well. Nothing that makes functioning too difficult, but yes he is different. I am similar so I get it. Would I have latched onto something like that at that age given the current climate? Possibly yes. I homeschool so there are no school issues to deal with thankfully. If he were depressed or anything I’d find him a therapist to deal with that and just tell them no way on the gender issue. The blockers and all of that is “the” treatment. I had one therapist tell me I was a lousy parent for not forcing him to do these things. Hell, I even offered him the blockers and groups before thinking it through and he said no (now I’m firmly in the no way category). Seriously, some people have gone off the deep end with this stuff.
So many parents tell the same story: They go to a therapist, who jumps to the conclusion that hormones and/or surgeries are the answer to whatever the kid’s issues are. Then I hear trans activists calling us liars, saying how all the gender therapists and doctors are so careful and deliberate about the process. I’ve been reading recently that in some countries (notably Finland) the gender specialists DO screen carefully and don’t rush things. But in the United States? It has become unsafe to take your kid to therapy, because so many therapists seem eager to diagnose “gender dysphoria” based solely on a few statements made by the kid. There is no serious effort to look at underlying issues. They truly have “gone off the deep end” and this is not going to end well.
The most sighted study is the brain scan showing trans women’s similarity to women. If this study was as reliable as they say, men that want to be trans women could just have the scan done before any “treatments”. When I said this with my son present, he was mortified saying that would be the worst invasion of privacy to see inside his brain. I thought that was quite telling.
What was most disturbing to me about the gender “specialist” was that she didn’t really listen to me. She told me how he was feeling, thinking, and twisted what he actually said. I told her she was overreaching and jumping to conclusions without knowing him at all. And of course I’m the “broken” one who isn’t listening. No doubt something is going on with my kid, but as far as I’m concerned nothing warranting stuff like blockers.
The crazy thing is the people I get the most sympathy from are people I can’t generally get on board with. These are the people who hate this for other reasons. Stuff like it being an abomination and against “god”. I am not coming from it with that angle at all. If ultimately my kid decided that was the best thing for him, fine. I would support him. That’ s just not going to happen when he is 13 and has barely experienced anything in life. And he himself said he does not want it.
To be fair, I assumed a lot of stuff too when I first found out. Because this is talked about so openly. But when I started really listening to what he was actually saying, it really didn’t match what people are assuming about this. Sorry to be so vague here, but he wishes to keep it private at the moment and really they aren’t my details to share.
Then again I have spoken with people who have transitioned and they agree with how I have handled it. They also agree some stuff is being pushed without enough real consideration for people on a case by case basis. They are just trying to mold all the pegs to fit the same narrow slot. These are serious and drastic procedures. I could not live with myself forcing him into something like that and it turning out to be a huge mistake. Whatever happened to do no harm? What if he said he hates his arms and won’t feel right until we cut them off? Should we do that? If we don’t, is that because we hate armless people and don’t care to treat them fairly?
I know, totally preaching to the choir here, but it’s at least something.
Don’t know if anyone here is familiar with Walt H. He regretted his transition and has been speaking out about it. Yes, he is also very religious. So that part took some getting over for me I admit. He also interviews for ultra conservative outlets. I wrote to him and asked him why that is. That isn’t he preaching to the choir. He said he has been invited on more mainstream news places and every single time they cancel his segment deeming it too disrespectful to trans people. Good grief, I think since he actually did this he is qualified to say it did not help him. Why wouldn’t his story matter? Why can’t we know about the cases where this does not work? And then nobody will look for other treatments. This will be it. And I’m not convinced it is quite right for everyone. For one thing, my kid has never acted like a girl. He’d have to “act” pretty hard. I thanked him for trying.
I made a comment of concern on another article on-line. Talking about what happened in our situation. Nothing attacking or off the wall. More like just saying this was not my experience. Someone responded that I must be in denial about the situation. I’m not in denial about the situation. I am questioning the validity of the treatments. That is all. Nobody can give me a straight answer because they do not know and they are only experimenting on children. And they won’t at least admit that.
The Thought Police will brook no dissent. But if you read any of these articles extolling the transition of children, a huge number of critical commenters are there. That tells you that the general public has not bought this narrative. A recent article in the Guardian is actually more balanced than most. So there is hope. It’s very strange. though, that there is so little critical thinking on this issue publicly expressed, given that we live in Western societies that supposedly value free speech and thought. Guardian article:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/12/transgender-children-have-to-respect-who-he-is
Thank you for that info about Walt H getting ‘the hook’ on TV shows. Then of course he looks less credible because he’s only in conservative media. Oh ho. 😠
You sound like a good mother protecting your kid from loony crap. The comment you made where you said if you didn’t want your son to have his arms cut off would that mean that you hate armless people is perfect! That’s how crazy this is. People in the media who are probably the most luke-warm pro gay people have decided to what do you even call it? be all snippy on behalf of trans. There’s a contradiction in trans, probably more than one, where we’re supposed to respond to it like it’s an ordinary thing the way being gay is and anyone who is not on board with how great it is is a horrible crappy bigot. Like a racist. But at the same time it’s a medical condition where you need the system medical and governmental to change you. Now when it comes to medical conditions and medical treatments people are entitled, even obligated, to analyze that and assess does this make sense. Whereas if it were just a fact about somebody, that they were short or that they were gay or black or Jewish then to analyze and assess that fact about them would be creepy and bad. So Trans want to have it both ways. That it’s like an ethnic/racial fact about a person while at the same time it’s a ‘Medical condition’ except even there it’s a weird medical condition where the doctors have to give it to you. You have a normal body and they make it different. And then you need ongoing medical care for that different body. Being pro that has nothing to do with being against racism or against anti-gay prejudice. Also as I described it it really sounds like otherkins. (People who get body modifications to seem like animals. That’s a real thing.) ‘Change me! Now on the special minority!’
Also please know that trans consists of, among other even more diffuse things, heterosexual men with a sexual fetish and people most of them gay who think they ought to be the other sex because they bought into the idea that homosexuality means being like the opposite sex. Macho women, femmy men. Sorry to be so personal and blunt but maybe your son has a sexual fetish and just needs treatment for that. Psychiatrist Paul McHugh has said that treatment for that exists. He was the head of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins in the late 70s and stopped the transsexual surgeries there.
I talked to Paul McHugh. Nice guy. He offered to speak to me on the phone because he’s 5 hours away. I declined and just e-mailed him a couple of times. He seemed to think what was going on with my son wasn’t really a big deal.
I don’t think I need to “do” anything at the moment, but I am confused by the whole thing for sure.
The narrative in the “t” community doesn’t allow descent. Those who have detransitioned (<<not a word in Apple's dictionary by the way) were never really trans in the first place. I watched an interview with Theryn Meyer, a partially transitioned mtt who said about Walt H that it was a sad misdiagnosis that led him to transition. My son also said, "in my experience, anyone who regrets transition wasn't really trans in the first place." Parroted right off the Internet. Just like "that's how science works." Referring to those knuckle heads trying to defend their peer reviewed nonsense. Further note on Heyer, Walt. That he called his lost anatomy his snoopy lightened the devastation just a bit.
Wrenching little clip from Dr. Phil — older dad sees adult son in transitioned garb for the first time. I wonder what the whole segment was like. At least Phil correctly points out and identifies the pain that the trans person is causing to loved ones, and that most of the stories only glorify the journey of the trans person. What’s going on with the families to be willing to be on TV and go through this in public — yeah, that is some weird stuff, I could never do that. Nevertheless … this dad’s sobs say a lot. Most people are not gonna glibly holler ‘transphobe’ at that guy. IMO.
http://news.yahoo.com/tearful-dad-sees-transgender-child-205220038.html
The comments to this clip make it clear that the vast, vast majority of people outside this fishbowl would be sympathetic to what the rest of us in this situation are going through.
That was hard to watch. I feel very much like that thinking about my son. And if he did this, I’d blame the idiots who told him this treatment was going to be the answer.
I watched that episode, it’s on YouTube. The man was his uncle I believe. It’s the usual blather. They are quite unsympathetic to the uncle if I recall correctly. Here it is. https://youtu.be/boL-dc0OwhA Dr. Phil is doing what he feels he must or he won’t have a career any longer.
Apparently this stuff is an epidemic. My son told me there is another one like him in his drama class. I said how do you know that. He gave a sign. There are maybe 15 kids in the class. What are the odds there would be more than one? And I wonder what kind of sign was given (and why in hell my son knows this).
*sigh* Seriously isn’t parenting complicated enough without this weirdness?
I work at a high school, we have one mtt that uses a female name, but changes in the boys locker room so far. We’ll see where that goes. There is also an ftt that seems to want to fly under the radar at the moment. I haven’t had any interaction with either yet. They’re both just kids. All of our counselors have the pink, blue and white trans inclusion flags on their doors. It’s difficult to deal with. I won’t disrespect them. I’ll use their nicknames, but will do my best to avoid using their gender. School is not the place for this. It’s toxic. I hope I don’t have to watch it spread, but my hopes are not high.
So, a brief update.
My daughter who says she’s trans has a twin sister. And *that* daughter has just been diagnosed with OCD and extreme anxiety. So, screw you, therapists. I have two kids with inherited anxiety and one of them is doing rituals every hour to alleviate it (and hiding it from us until recently because she was embarrassed) and one has hit upon a way to force everyone else to match her anxiety levels. But, you know, I’m just a transphobe. And an abuser who doesn’t care about my own kids.
So, except for the psychiatrist who prescribes the meds which do help, I’m swearing off therapy for everyone. No way I have the time to deal with people who are proving to be incapable of listening to me, as a parent, and working WITH us instead of against us. Damn it, I’m a good mom and my kids have inherited some difficult psychological issues and treating A SYMPTOM instead of the actual problem is the really hateful thing here.
Our current plan of action was to lay down our boundaries and then get on with it. And, things have improved a lot for everyone because of that. I’m still upset about the lack of support and the moronic attitudes of therapists and activists, but whatever. I’m still following along here and want to be supportive to others, too. I’m so glad that all of you are here (while hating the reason) and I hope the rest of you can find some calm in the midst of this trans-tempest. We have for a short while and here’s hoping it lasts.
well done! time that parents take their children back into the fold…my daughters who are not trans-identified have both been diagnosed with borderline personality after 1) PTSD from a major school shooting she witnessed, (the first one) and, 2) after a sexual assault (the second one). i was so afraid that this diagnosis would stick the rest of their lives, i told them not to go back to the hospital, and sought private therapy for them. what a crock that these people can diagnose children without meeting the parents!
Katiesan, it seems weird to say it but I feel glad for you. And for both of your daughters. Not for having OCD, yuck, but for getting the diagnosis and then everything changes. But very very slowly. I have a disability and once you comprehend that you’re going to be living with this disability it makes it a lot better. Or perhaps, less bad. You’re absolutely right about the moronic therapist. They treat platitudes as if they were therapy.
Here’s the thing, take notes. Not secretly, let your daughters know you’re doing it. Write down what’s going on because someday there will be psychologists, researchers who want to figure out how to treat what people actually have instead of putting them into prefab boxes. And information about what happened in your OCD daughter’s life will be useful.
Best wishes, to all of you.
I will try to keep my story as brief as possible, as it is similar to many I’ve read here and at other sites. My daughter came to me in June 2014, at the age of 13, and “came out” and told me that she was gender queer. She is highly intelligent, and had done quite a lot of research on the subject, visiting sites such as genderspectrum.org, etc. She said she felt uncomfortable in her body, particularly her breasts. She said she had felt that way for a long time — upon further discussion, a long time meant 2-4 months. She had changed schools that year, and had come into a friendship with a girl that, for a 12 then 13-year-old, was very vocal about gay rights, and who introduced my daughter to a 5th grader who, based on her appearance, was very possibly having true gender dysphoria, although I do not know her or her family well enough to know her personal business. By looking back through my daughter’s texting history (no privacy allowed at this point), I discovered that the seventh grade friend had told my daughter that she was “pan sexual” at which point my daughter asked if she could also use that term. The friend also said she had a crush on my daughter.
I do not know if my daughter would have come to this place on her own eventually, but it seems obvious to me that she was in a vulnerable state and was influenced by the interest and opinions of her “friend” at that point in her life. She was never particularly “girly” growing up, but neither was she any sort of tomboy. She has always been a budding intellectual, serious, mature, but also quirky, witty and fun. She enjoyed feminine things like dressing in a formal for cotillion and getting pedicures.
Her main interest currently is Japanese animation and comic books. Much of that genre seems to focus on gender queerness or gender neutrality. She also likes characters such as the BBCs version of Sherlock and Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory — media depictions of highly intelligent somewhat asexual people. The “experts” I have spoken to are insistent that no one would choose to be gender queer. I beg to differ. As I look around on tumblr and in other areas of my daughter’s life, I see an entire youth culture built around a transgender lifestyle. I feel it is possible that my daughter wanted to throw away society’s standards for feminine beauty at a time that she felt low esteem for her body and was in a vulnerable place as an adolescent in a new school environment. In a way, it is as if she decided that she wanted to join the LGBT movement where she would be sure to fit in, she just had to decide to be gay and genderqueer. She still shows an interest in boys(!) although she claims to be a lesbian, which may indicate that she really has not based this on some biological urge as much as an intellectual wishfulness.
My daughter may grow up and be gay and she may choose to wear masculine clothing, keep her hair short, etc. I will always love her and support her, and will accept whoever she turns out to be as an adult. However, I honestly am worried about her underlying mental health because I think some body acceptance issues, low self esteem, and other problems may be at the root of her sudden change. Upon her “outing,” my husband and I immediately had her physically examined for any hormonal or other issues and then took her to a psychologist who is an expert in this area. Like so many other posters, in the first meeting we were discussing puberty blockers. We tried a different therapist, hoping that someone not specialized in gender issues may have a more holistic approach to our daughter’s mental health. However, over the course of several months, the only thing she did was try to evaluate whether my daughter met the criteria for gender dysphoria. She told us it would be unethical for her to question our daughter’s belief about herself. Can you imagine if a therapist would not try to help a patient overcome the underlying body issues of an anorexic? The whole mindset seems so preposterous.
We eventually went to visit Dr. Paul McHugh one time. Even though he is nearing or past retirement age, I was impressed with his sharpness and ability to rapidly grasp the details of our situation. He has very interesting insight into what I think he views as more of an epidemic, based on a long career in psychiatry, one in which he has seen before where the psychiatric field as a whole got things wrong. We don’t live close enough to him for any regular therapy and, at any rate, he really isn’t taking clients, but we wanted our daughter to see the situation from a perspective different from the other therapists we had visited.
My question to you is this: Many of your posters seem to be in a similar situation as mine. I am worried that we are not truly supporting our daughter without getting her some counseling that will look at the potential underlying causes of what led to her alleged gender dysphoria to start with. Do you have any advice or resources that would help us to find a psychiatric professional who would look at our daughter as an entire person and not as simply someone who has proclaimed to be gender queer? I fear we are doing her a grave disservice if we do not try to help her through this difficult time in her life, before she makes choices that may make her life so much harder.
Thank you for creating your blog. It is so comforting to know we are not the only ones doubting the inevitability of this.
Welcome, Katie, to a place where people understand and empathize. Your question regarding finding a good therapist is one we all have. My personal advice (others will have their own views) is that you need to carefully vet any therapist you entrust your child with. It will take time. There are definitely therapists out there who are skeptical but you have to ferret them out. More and more, they are fearful of speaking out themselves. I would get on the phone and interview several. Listen carefully to what they say to you. Since your daughter is only 14 (?) any therapist who treats your daughter should be willing to speak with you first, as well as provide some family sessions, even if he or she will be primarily your daughter’s counselor.
P.S. Don’t feel you must ever be brief in your comments. This blog space is a community for people like you, so write as much as you like.
my best wishes for you Katie, and your daughter and your whole family.
I know just what you mean about Sherlock and Sheldon. When I was 13 I would’ve liked them too. They’re the main perso,n they’re snarky and they’re super smart. There are no female characters like that in the mass media. (There’s Samantha Carter in Stargate but she’s not snarky.) And I grew up to be neither trans nor even a lesbian but a scientist.
Now I may be confused here, but I thought trans and genderqueer were totally different things. Unless genderqueer has intrinsic to it the creepy taking testosterone and having ‘top surgery’. In which case it’s even more disturbing than I thought. This is an account of a woman who started the process of changing to a man and then thought better of it and stopped. It’s a very good little essay. You might find it very disturbing to read. This might be what some people mean by genderqueer.
https://crashchaoscats.wordpress.com/2013/07/22/living-in-a-modified-body/
I guess the search for a therapist may be long and difficult, but I will happily report if I find someone in my area in case anyone else is nearby.
I probably do misuse the relevant terms, as I am a unenthusiastic student at best in this area. I would say that my daughter (yes, still 14) considers herself genderqueer at this point. I know from following up on her Internet use, she has looked into binding but luckily found a tumblr blog which emphasized the dangers of doing it improperly. She wears a workout bra as a sort of compromise now. She researched the cost of testosterone at one point, but when asked said it was because of a question which arose while researching a paper for school. I don’t think that she’ll attempt to obtain testosterone without our knowledge, but I can’t help but worry. I know it is very expensive, I assume that no one would give it to her for free or share it with her, although that is yet another concern. With that said, she may be thinking that she will transition when she is older and no longer under her father’s and my influence. I hope that she finds a way to accept her body as it is now, before she decides to try to alter it.
We have two other children, a son who is almost 13 and a daughter of 10. I’m sure they’ve noticed an elephant in the room at times, but we’ve never had a serious discussion with them about this. As long as my daughter is only dressing in boyish clothes, wearing her hair short, no makeup, etc, but not overtly taking steps to become male, they seem to just accept her for who she is without questioning it, and I haven’t wanted to dramatize the issue by turning it into a family event. Even when my daughter is covered from neck to knee at the beach, the other children just seem to think of it as one of her idiosyncrasies. I’m honestly not sure if we are handling it in the best way, but are just trying to keep our other kids’ lives as normal as possible, especially as they are entering serious adolescence themselves.
I have come to feel that “genderqueer” is “trans lite.” The very notion that a girl who doesn’t want to dress, behave, or look like a stereotype is somehow outside her own gender/sex (thus the “queer”) is part of the regressive gaslighting going on. There have been a couple of parents who have commented here in the past who noticed their kid going from a happy, “gender nonconforming” child to “genderqueer” then on to “trans.” That said, whatever your daughter chooses as a label for herself clearly isn’t something to battle over, and in any case, teens are going to experiment with their identities regardless. I hope you’re right that she isn’t going to seek out testosterone. It is NOT expensive and there are adults online who are more than happy to help supply it to young people. I’m not saying this to alarm you, only to point out that blackmarket hormones are definitely available. As someone else pointed out, buying time is what you are doing. The way I see it, every day is a few more brain cells, more time for your daughter to stop and consider, instead of going off half-cocked (the specialty of the teen brain!) I think you can calmly assert your views when the time is right without trying to force anything. Short, powerful statements, delivered judiciously and occasionally, are better received than lectures. And as to whether you are handling this in the “best way,” like everything else with parenting, it’s a work in progress. But parental instincts will get you a long way. You love your kid. You aren’t jumping on the bandwagon precisely because you DO love her. Even though it seems there is little support for it nowadays, kids really need us as guides, not best buddies who will simply rubberstamp whatever they think they want.
Katie, glad you made it here. 4thWaveNow’s blog has been a comfort to me as well.
It seems that many of our daughters and sons have experienced a vulnerability in their lives prior to them identifying as transgender. My daughter went through a period of depression before coming to this conclusion. It seemed to open a wound that let the transgender infection manifest. I really don’t think that she would believe she was transgender without the depression. It weakened her into being susceptible to the massive amounts of transgender propaganda she came into contact with online and in the media.
Katie, my situation is not exactly the same, but I can relate to a lot of it. I’m dealing with this and my 13 year old son. He too is pretty smart and probably did pick up on some “interesting” ideas on-line and through others. I have had similar difficulty finding a decent therapist too.
Thanks for sharing your story. I also talked to Dr. M via e-mail.
The more people like you, and others here, who speak out the better. You are obviously a very caring and thoughtful parent. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. No caring parent would do all of that and reach out in this way. You have just thought things through rather than taking advice from people who don’t know your kid.
And if your kid was willing to share those details with you, that says a lot about your relationship too. My son also told me about his feelings. I had one therapist tell me kids don’t talk to their parents so I should get him into her office. I guess so she can brainwash him with her ideas. She can’t possibly know what he tells me or does not tell me. She concluded a bunch of stuff despite never meeting him and only talking to me for less than an hour. I got the heck away from her.
I won’t lie. This has been an emotional roller coaster for me. Talking to the people here has helped.
I think this is great advice, and I’d like to add that I think you’re absolutely right not to make it into a family issue Katie. It’s up to your daughter whether she shares this stuff with her siblings, and they’re too young to really get it anyway. If you try and explain things it can just sort of set it in concrete that this is a big issue. It sounds to me like you’re doing great, it’s a balance between giving the help and information you can and stepping back and trusting her so she won’t feel the need to go and do things to spite you. It seems you have a good relationship which counts for so much, good luck.
Katie, your story sounds so much like ours. My daughter is about to turn 14 and “came out” to us in the spring of 2014. The past six months have been a whirlwind of difficult, negative thinking and unstable moods for her, and it’s breaking my heart. Of course, as a good feminist mother, I always encouraged my daughters’ unconventional gender expression. We never had Barbies; they could play with girls and/or boys, we had very little pink and few gendered toys. So much for that. She asked her school counselor to encourage teachers to use male pronouns, and the adults at school were immediately supportive (they did ask us about it first, but after they’d already promised her support on her brave journey). I’m so confused and frustrated by the binarism of trans politics. My daughter is clearly attracted to boys, even though she sometimes says she likes girls – as many of you have said, it seems to be a “thing” now for young teens to place themselves somewhere along the complicated spectrum of sexual orientation. I’m not so worried about that, as it will sort itself out once they’re old enough to actually have sexual relationships…but being gay, or bi, or pansexual, or whatever doesn’t require medical intervention. I continue to be stunned by the lack of critical thinking shown by so many “supportive” adults. Our strategy, for now, has been to get our daughter into therapy to address her other mental health issues (anxiety has always been a problem for her) and to decide that we’ll consider gender-related counseling once her mood is stabilized. Her therapist had us consult with a psychiatrist regarding the possibility of medication, and that doctor has told us that she’s seen a growing wave of young teenage girls labeling themselves trans. She’s not speculating about all the reasons for that, but it’s both interesting and disturbing.
It’s so reassuring to know that there are other parents out there who share our perspective and concerns.
Hi, Beth. Welcome aboard. I’m curious about the doctor who mentioned to you that she has seen a “growing wave” of teenage girls identifying as trans. Did the doctor say anything more? Did you get the sense the doctor had concerns about that? The increase in girls in particular has been noted by some researchers, which I wrote about a few months back.
http://4thwavenow.com/2015/07/10/why-are-more-girls-than-boys-presenting-to-gender-clinics/
Yes, this doctor did express some concern. She said that, three years ago, it would have been rare for her to see a female patient claiming to be trans, and that now it seems to be something girls assume they can casually choose. She’s curious about the cultural/sociopolitical forces behind it. While she’s not a gender specialist (her focus is anxiety in adolescents), she did agree with us that it was going to be critical to find a therapist who would be willing to address the gender identity issue by looking at “the whole kid.” We will continue to explore this with her as we see her for a few more sessions. I still don’t know how easy it will be to find a mental health professional willing to proceed with that kind of caution.
I’m going to ask our pediatricians whether they’ve seen this same kind of notable increase. Something is going on here that doesn’t make sense, and I’m not really willing to let my daughter get swept up in the tide so quickly.
Be careful with therapists. I have yet to find one who is anything but a mouthpiece for the “trans is terrific” idea. Best of luck to you.
Feeling relief reading here, that I’m not unsupportive or in denial but that there’s room for questioning the rapid-paced medicalization of teen identity-questioning.
My own child came to me a number of months ago after a friend started menstruating, horrified that the same would happen to her own body, and declared that while she “doesn’t want a penis,” she doesn’t want to be a woman either. She just wants to be a kid.
To me, this feels completely normal and age appropriate, *especially* in a culture that oversexualizes women/girls and which is still so very rooted in binary identity.
What terrifies me is how there’s now an entire industry available to (medically) “solve” this experience.
Thankfully, at this time, my child isn’t interested in hormone replacement. But I’m grateful for a place to hash out ideas and how to best talk about them with our kids.
Thank you for taking the time to voice your own concerns and insights.
Welcome, TreadingWater. The unhappiness so many girls experience with their bodies at puberty is one of the many things the transactivist/gender doctor crowd gloss over. And now, the online Tumblr crowd is ready to tell those girls they are “really” boys.
YES! Exactly – “here swallow this, do this, go under the knife, it will make it all better”
BULLSHIT.
And I’m told that I’m “in denial” when I speak those concerns – how is changing the outside supportive of what’s really on the inside? It’s the same old BUY this and all will be okay. Fill that lack with something purchased
I don’t care if my child is gay. I don’t care if my child identifies as a giraffe. I do care that my child is being led down a path where you can “fix” the most important existential questions about life and identity with pharmaceuticals and medical procedures.
Hi 4thwavenow — I spent the last few minutes reading through every comment posted. The stories from parents and family members are heartbreaking. I don’t have kids, but I am a longtime feminist who has always been vested in the eliminated of gender-based, socially-imposed rules for children. It feels like two steps back for women whenever a young girls starts to believe that, for example, because she’s interested in science and hates the color pink that it must mean she’s actually a boy deep down. Or if a boy shows nurturing tendencies that he somehow must actually be a girl. Parents and their children need places like this where they can talk about these issue without being shutdown as transphobic or dismissed as TERFs.
All that said, someone had mentioned up-thread about starting a forum? I have experience setting up and configuring ProBoards forums if there is still interest.
yes, please do!
You say your son is FTM? I sincerely hope for his sake you will learn to understand him for who he is. I know you don’t want to hear this, but if you continue to see him as a gender he is not, you will ruin the relationship between you and him. Not because of doctors, not because of our culture, not because of anything else but that fact that he is a man, and one day he won’t be able to pretend to be your daughter anymore. 41% of trans people commit suicide because they can’t live out their lives in this kind of society. Do you really want to be apart of oppression that drives them to such an extreme option?
This is a great object lesson and example of the predictable pablum that is dished up to parents by trans activists on a daily basis. My reply in this post: http://4thwavenow.com/2015/10/04/typical-example-of-why-so-many-parents-are-cowed-into-submission-by-trans-activists/
Ashley, you are issuing threats to a parent. The threat that their child will kill themself. You should take a look at the kind of person YOU are.
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I am so relieved to have found this blog! My daughter will be 17 tomorrow and came out this summer as transgender. She immediately requested that I call her a new name and use male pronouns. I want to support her as she figures out who she is but I was skeptical of the binders, hormones and surgery that so many rush into. At this time we are simply supporting how she chooses to dress. I will read your through your blog more to see if you mention these issues also. I felt guilty because they recently had a school dance and she dressed as a boy. And I did buy the clothes but I felt conflicted about it. It is hard to find any support for parents who aren’t willing to jump on the bandwagon!
Welcome aboard the good ship 4thWaveNow, Christina. Plenty of room for you here. Yes, do look around and post here and anywhere else you like on the blog. I know other regular contributors will want to welcome you, too. Just know that you are not alone, and we’re all learning from each other. There are no “right” or “wrong” answers. Some parents here are going along with aspects of their child’s trans identity (such as using “preferred pronouns”), while others aren’t. Glad you found us.
Welcome, Cristina. Right there with you on the conflicted feelings re the nonconforming clothing. I would like nothing more than to buy my daughter a prom dress. Pretty sure that is not going to happen, though her gender identity is in flux and right now she’s more interested in identifying as a gamer. Still has the girl name/pronouns. But also still binding, alas.
Other than the binding, which I hope she will have the good sense to discontinue, I tell myself that clothes are clothes, and there’s no point in getting very freaked out about clothes. Just as there would be no point in getting freaked out about hair dye. Kids gotta do something to rebel. If there were a really safe-and-reversible method of doing a ‘transition try-on,’ that’d be … yeah, that’d be a thing to consider. Unfortunately there is NOT such an alternative, so we all just muddle through as best we can. Hang onto your convictions and your skepticism and stay close to your kid. Keep her busy, and keep her safe, and keep her away from the cult, as much as you possibly can. (I’m a big fan of distraction vs. prohibition, as much as humanly possible.)
We’re here for you.
She dressed in boy shorts and t-shirts when she was younger and it really didn’t bother me. She hated the super short shorts that were the style at the time and I didn’t blame her one bit. She’s had one boyfriend and multiple girlfriends. None of that has bothered me in the slightest. It’s the agenda as one person said that she’s truly a man. And I’ve explained my concern that even with testosterone and removing her breasts she would not be a man. We are calling her by her female name and using female pronouns at home. I know at school friends call her by her chosen male name. My inner conflict with the clothing was primarily that it might appear that I support that it will perpetuate the idea that she’s really a man. I truly believe that she is unhappy with herself and she doesn’t fit the stereo typical female versions of a woman. I just want to shout at her and plead with her to love herself as she is. To convince her that it is the true path to happiness within herself.
Christina, glad that you made it here. I’m in the same boat. Currently we are letting our daughter dress in “boy” clothes. She also has a short hair cut and is wearing a sports bra to flatten out what little breasts she has. There was an initial request from her for all of the things your daughter also requested, but we are still using her given name and female pronouns. And, thankfully, I believe I have convinced her to be more cautious about hormones and surgery (could be her lying to avoid more conversations about this touchy subject, though).
I am now able to deal with the clothes she wears to school every day without batting an eye, but it is harder for me to cope with what she wears for more formal events. Last month she attended an event that she needed to dress up for, but, of course, a dress was not a possibility, so she dressed “boyish”. This was more difficult for me to cope with. It was such a stark contrast with how she dressed for the same event last year.
It is harder for me to deal with the big picture moments of high school–the homecoming dance, prom, senior pictures. I do feel that she will regret her clothing choices when she looks back on it (prior to this, she always seemed comfortable presenting conventionally female). I really want to protect her from this, but I bite my tongue and try to realize that she needs to work this out for herself. It does make me sad, though.
I’m going to guess that some here (including me) will want to say that dressing in “boy” clothes is fine, as is a short haircut, etc. However, I also know that when the girl is specifically doing it to “pass” as male, it is upsetting. I’m a person who is also fairly “gender nonconforming.” If my kid dressed in more conventionally “boy clothes” but wasn’t doing it because of an agenda, I’d have been totally supportive. I would guess some of the non-parents here might wonder why it matters that daughters have buzz cuts, baggy jeans, and t-shirts bought in the men’s department. It’s because of what it signifies to those girls–that it means they’re boys. Having said that, I never object to anything my daughter wears and I paid for the short haircut.
The dance was hard for me because she went with another girl. That girl’s mother would not allow her to take pictures with my daughter. Which is her right, but we were with a group of kids and their parents and it was made obvious in front of everyone. It hurt me for her and I just wanted to protect her from that. She stood with the boys which also was hard for me.
Yes, clothes are clothes, whatever department you buy them from. I don’t present as 100% conventionally female myself and find some clothes from the men’s department to be more comfortable, and I am all about comfort.
It is disheartening that I feel concerned when my daughter wears clothing similar to my own. I could completely understand if her choices were due to comfort, but they aren’t. This sudden wardrobe change occurred when she “came out” as transgender. When clothing and haircuts are used as props to help her “pass” as male, it is upsetting. It makes me sad that she isn’t comfortable in her own skin.
Christina, sending you hugs. What a horrible experience for you and your daughter to go through!
OMG, the dressing like a boy thing. My daughter’s belief that’s she’s trans seems to waning (I think) but she still likes to be mistaken for a boy. This is such an internal struggle for me. I was never really able to unpack why. I’m not very gender conforming myself and I’m happy she doesn’t want to wear the tiny tight clothes so many teenage girls dress in these days. If she were to tell me she wants to wear a suit to the prom because she wants to bust stereotypes and girls should be able to wear whatever they want, I think I’d be proud.
Had to delurk to say that. My story is similar to everyone else’s and if I can organize my thoughts better I’ll post more.
4th Wave, this blog is a balm to my soul.
Welcome, Josephine. So glad you find our words of some help. And yeah, please stick around and tell us more.
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Here’s something I’ve been wondering for a while now. Can someone point me to any reputable academic work that explains the fundamental theory of transgender? I mean, I want to know why the medical and mental health communities justify accepting the statements of children and teens so unconditionally when it comes to this, in a way they’d never accept the body hatred of a kid with anorexia, or the pregnancy desire so brilliantly described above, or just about any other potentially life-altering decision a kid wants to make at this age. Please tell me they have something more substantial than “this just feels right.” What are the intellectual underpinnings of this acceptance?
There really is no ‘one’ reference to gain insight into the theoretical constructs behind the current practice of altering children to match cultural norms, since there is no proven basis for the cause of ‘gender identity’ conflict. Given our culture’s move away from social constructionism, the proponents of ‘gender reassignment’ have spent virtually all research resources in unsuccessful attempts to prove that gender identity is fixed and sourced in biological determinants which would, in their view, justify the drastic interventions which they support. Continuing research regarding social or psychological causes of ‘gender dysphoria’ have been abandoned and in many cases quashed due to the political elements joining with scientists promoting these interventions.
The best ‘overview’ that I’ve been able to find online which discusses the “science” behind the rationale for medically intervening with children is at http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/opus/issues/2011/spring/gender_identity_development . You will notice that no mention is made of brain plasticity or socialization or any of the research with regard to the formation of gender identity in relation to such. Peggy Cohen-Kettenis, major contributor to the “Dutch Protocol” which involves transitioning children, published the following paper to detail the diagnoses of gender identity disorder. Although the ‘standards’ have been updated in the most recent DSM-V, the basis for this experimentation on children is rooted in the same “science” used to justify that of transitioning adults. (This is also a general early overview) http://www.shb-info.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/articulogoorenkettenis99.pdf Ultimately, this emphasis on adults led to the current practice of experimentation on children to ‘normalize’ their cross-gender behaviors and gendered beliefs, leading to what has become the current practice of interruption of their natural psychological and social development. The following paper outlines the Dutch rationale for chemically and surgically intervening with children: http://www.eje-online.org/content/155/suppl_1/S131.full.pdf+html
For a historical overview of ‘transsexualism,’ these two links may prove to be helpful:
Making Gender Identity Disorder of Childhood: Historical Lessons for Contemporary Debates
https://faculty.newpaltz.edu/karlbryant/files/Bryant-srsp.2006.3.3.pdf
The Transsexual Phenomenon: A Counter-History (behind paywall)
http://jsh.oxfordjournals.org/content/47/4/1042.abstract
For a critique of the current changes in the DSM-V by Anne Lawrence, a transsexual member of WPATH:
http://www.annelawrence.com/gender_assignment_dysphoria.html
See the link I provided below from thirdwaytrans’ blog, explaining why transing became widely embraced (in his opinion) and is gaining steam, and why gatekeeping, even of the WPATH type, is going poof. The underpinnings aren’t intellectual or scientific. They’re sociopolitical. As far as I can discern. People trying to be on the right side of history, and prioritizing the lived experience of their patients. Thirdwaytrans really has some quite insightful insider writing on the subject. Scroll down and check it out.
Hahaha. (Hollow laughter.) As far as I’ve seen there is nothing. You speak volumes in your comment. There may be some convoluted justifications these therapists offer. But yeah it comes down to We just believe what the kid says. They even treat a male toddler saying ‘I’m a girl’ as for sure neither make believe nor small child language confusion.
I can tell you psychiatrists and psychologists are supposed to do a thing called a differential diagnosis where they consider other possible explanations for the symptoms. In Trans they clearly don’t. And yeah there is no research supporting any of this. The people who do this are true believers. Other medical professionals avoid it. Selection effect. So sorry it’s so bad.
Also, wanted to pass on that there is a forum in the works. We will be in contact.
Hi,
I found my way to you all via thirdwaytrans. I’m new here but not new to the trans indoctrination of our kids. My child – and my family – is having the same problems. After many therapist and a 10-day stay in a mental hospital, I thought we had found a good therapist, may be even a great therapist. He’s an older gentleman who specializes is dissocation. He promised me he could remain objective and unbiased about the trans cramp and treat my kid’s anxiety, depression, dissociation and utter lack of reality about things that have nothing to do with trans. Each visit, he has more BS about how we need to understand trans and the biology and neurobiology of trans. The nbio/neuro-bio research is very bias and completely lacks controls ans well as does take many factors in to consideration. He’s (therapist) beginning to push us toward the trans affirmation crap. I am so fed up with their force of lies. I’ve done tons of research and tried for years – yes years – to find a therapist with a brain. I thought we had found one until he allowed my child to begin to control him. I’ve recognized this control thing for a long time now. And, now, I am more certain that ever. It’s pure narcissistic control. The darned (got a better word but trying to keep it as clean as possible) APA seems to have tainted everyone. He’s (the therapist) now sending me videos with Dr Spack and a FTM panelists who thinks he’s humorous and brave and the other panelists are cheering him on for his bravery. What a load up crap!!! Anyhow…. Dr Spack is making a monetary killing on lies. While all he doing is padding his pocket, allowing our kids to live lies and not face their problems and learn to live with themselves. I wish someone would take out a class action lawsuit against these people, I mean demons. Anyhow, it seems we are in need of new therapist. We’ve jumped around so much trying to find the right person. They all say they can be objective when I interview them. When they tie my in kid in a relationship with them, the real APA-loving, trans-affirming, parents-are-the-problem- BS comes out and we have to start all over. I am so fed up. Did I say that already. I am sooooo fed up!!! We – as parents – are so fed up. Serious about the lawsuit thing. …. Anyone else?
Most importantly in the short term: Anyone on the East coast, preferably, mid-Atlantic states who can offer a therapist who has proven, over time, they can remain unswayed by trans activists and the APA?
Thank you!
Fedupmom, welcome. Glad you’re here–but sorry you have to be. This lack of therapists who haven’t drunk the Kool-Aid is a serious problem. We need a resource list. We need therapists who feel they can join forces and push back on this. They are out there (I’ve talked to them in person) but they are scared. How can we help them connect? And what did you have in mind regarding lawsuits?
I don’t know alot about malpractice lawsuits but I do know decisions are NOT based on if the doctor did their job wrong. No matter how wrongly/incompetently they did it. Verdicts are based on harm. And the harm has to be simple and “provable” in an esoteric legal way. So like amputating the wrong foot. And in malpractice lawsuits all you get is money. The courts can’t make the doctors do anything differently. And, oh yeah, you have to have another doctor saying what the doc you’re suing did was wrong. Catch-22. I have no idea how much of this applies to psychotherapists. 😞
I don’t think this lack of therapists thing is going to improve until there are some really bad and public cases of damaging side effects and post-trans regret among kids who were transed as minors. Some media attention paid to that, some parental class-action suits, etc. I think we might still be six or 10 years away on that.
Meanwhile, there’s too much sociopolitical pressure and there’s a helluva lack of spine out there. But most therapists are not out there making big bucks. They’re really not. Taking a stand that could cost them their jobs is something that very very few would do. (McHugh will do it because, let’s face it, he’s an old dude with his career mostly behind him. He doesn’t have to give a damn re the blowback. He’s like a lame duck president at this point.)
Counselors are compassionate and generally on the side of people perceived as underdogs, and they are easily swayed in the presence of people who are disturbed, oppressed, upset. They’re longing to do something. So they’re doing something. Maybe they figure what they tried in the past didn’t work so well, so they’ll try this instead.
I don’t see much hope here, short term. I wish I did. I’d like to see a counselor myself, frankly. But I don’t need them to preach their sermonettes at me. (Hey, the Ashleys of the world can do that, already.) I’m grateful my kid, who’s had her issues over time, is doing OK at the moment. If that starts to slip, I dunno what the hell we will do. Honestly. Some of these kids — a lot of these kids — do need serious treatment for comorbid disorders. Some of them are going to get transed by default in the process of getting those treatments. (Unless you live in Finland. They seem to have some common sense in Finland. sigh.)
Thirdwaytrans in fact has an extremely good essay regarding this situation, fedupmom. I don’t know if you’ve read it, but it’s well worth the time. He writes as a psych industry insight and I think his insights about why therapists jump on such bandwagons are right on point.
http://thirdwaytrans.com/tag/psychology-2/
I’m sorry, fedupmom. I wish I had some help. I only have commiseration.
Astute analysis, puzzled. I hope you’re right and in 6 years there is visible pushback. That media treatment of trans will have moved from mindless celebration to ‘controversial treatment’. Here’s hoping.
http://transgenderreality.com/2015/09/11/youll-be-miserable-and-unhappy-with-your-body-for-the-rest-of-your-life/
Thank you for accepted my post 4thwavenow and welcoming me as well as your reply. Thank you puzzled and petuniacat00. I appreciate all of your replies!
The lawsuit I’d like to get going – at minimum at petition on change.org or such – is not against our previous therapists. The APA (American Psychological Association) is who I would like to confront. The therapists are simply the messengers of the APA. The therapists are not allowed to treat our kids’ co-existent conditions. They’re only allowed to pat our kids on the back and say, “If you feel like you’re a boy and you want to be a boy, go ahead. You can be that boy”. We all know how utterly wrong that is. That’s not doing one thing to address the mental problems these kids have. In fact, it is making their problems worse. We can’t get treatment for our kids b/c the APA is holding treatment hostage. That’s why I want to file a class action lawsuit against them. They are harming our kids and harming us in the process.
While I do agree that the therapist are not getting rich, consider this. I live in a Mid Atlantic state. The therapists here charge around $150 (some as much as $190) per hour. I do not begrudge anyone their pay. School is horribly expensive and most have student loan debt. However, even if you allow for 50% of hourly pay toward expenses ($150,00 in expenses), you’re still looking at $75 per hour. That’s a salary of around $150,000 per year. Heck, I wish I made that much. I’d have zero debt. These therapists have have full schedules and are being asked to work some Saturdays and evening hours. It depends on your perspective of “rich”.
The folks getting rich are the owners of the gender clinics, the endocrinologists and surgeons. I have that info. You can probably find the truth with google search. I can tell you endos make around $350K+ and most surgeons make around $500K+. I don’t know what the gender clinics are making but if they’re truthful in their disclosures, I’d bet it’s not less than the endos. Not only are they getting rich the first time around, they’re hitting a double jackpot when kids grow up and detransition – at least the surgeons are/will. It’s disgraceful and that’s putting it kindly.
Yes, I’ve read thirdwaytrans entire website, twice. I’ve watched the video with Lynna & Mark Cummings several times. I just emailed Lynna & Mark today and ordered Mark’s book, “The Mirror Makes No Sense”.
For the Ashleys of the world, you are young and cannot possibly see all of what others see. In fact, no one sees themselves in the same manner as other people see them. It’s just not possible. Adults tend to see things more objectively and bring to the table a wealth of experiences and many more years that kids have. Don’t be so quick to judge your parents. What parent want to harm their child?
Thank you for allowing me to be here. I was thinking of starting a forum (as I have experience in that area) but I see someone else said a forum is under way.
Thank you, fedupmom. Excellent comment and strategy. More to come from you, I hope!
I like the petition idea. Internet will freak out and say it’s bigotry. Have talking points to refute that ready. And do you want to name the American *Psychological* Association, or the American *Psychiatric* Association? They rather inconveniently have the same initials. Psychiatry one makes the incoherent and whore-ish DSM. I stand ready to sign. 😊
I am also ready to sign, fedupmom. Count me in.