Interview by Grace Williams
In this interview with Chiara Caignon, one of the co-founders of the Pique Resilience Project (PRP), and her mother, Denise Caignon (aka “Marie Verite”), the founder of 4thWaveNow, the two women tell the story of Chiara’s temporary trans identification and how this inspired the creation of 4thWaveNow. They talk about what life was like for both mother and daughter during the teenage years when Chiara believed she was a man, and Chiara describes the influences that eventually led to her desistance.
You can read Chiara’s personal essay, “Girlhood Interrupted: The Path of Desistance,” written for the Velvet Chronicle.
For several years now, 4thWaveNow has been administered and edited by a small, dedicated group of parents; it’s no longer a one-woman show. In the meantime, Chiara has gone her own way, recently joining forces with three other detransitioned women — Dagny, Helena, and Jesse — to launch the Pique Resilience Project. The purpose of PRP is to offer support to the growing number of young people who have realized that transition was a mistake for them, as well as to young people who are questioning their gender identity but have not yet transitioned. PRP has so far released two videos (here and here) and a podcast. Chiara was also interviewed by Benjamin Boyce about her experiences with trans identification and desistance on Feb. 21, 2019.
Chiara and Denise were previously interviewed (using the pseudonyms Rachel and Janette) for an article by Charlotte McCann in the Sept. 1, 2018, issue of The Economist,
“Why are so many teenage girls appearing in gender clinics?”
Grace Williams conducted this interview with Chiara and Denise via email. “I am one of the thousands of parents who have benefited greatly from 4thWaveNow,” says Grace, “and I’m deeply grateful to Chiara and the other young women of the Pique Resilience Project for their work to help young people like my daughter.”
Chiara, I’ve watched the videos you and the other women of the Pique Resilience Project have made and I’ve been really impressed with how articulate you all are. This is something new: a group of detransitioned/desisted women starting a YouTube channel. Can you tell us a bit about what inspired you to do this and how things are going so far?
I was put in contact with Dagny, Helena, and Jesse a few months ago, and we had our first meetup in January. The initial goal was to create an ongoing multimedia project, focused mainly on raising awareness. All four of us have unique experiences and are committed to sharing those in the hopes of informing others about the dangers of automatic gender affirmation and the influences of social media. We also dive in to other factors that fuel dysphoria, and the importance of exploring those before embarking on medical transition.
We’ve had incredible, overwhelmingly positive feedback so far, as well as a ton of opportunities that have arisen for us to expand our platform. Several parents and young people who are questioning their gender have contacted us for advice, and I personally have helped two so far in the process of self-reflecting and moving toward desisting. I’m very excited about the future for us and this project.
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Denise, what are your thoughts about PRP?
Chiara has always done things her own way. She’s tough and intelligent, so in one sense I’m not surprised that she could pull off something this important. And at the same time, what she and the other three women of PRP have created far surpasses what I could ever have imagined five years ago. Their message is one of strength and hope—not only for their primary audience, young people who are questioning their gender, but for parents whose daughters and sons have pursued and/or desisted from a trans identity. Not every young person will desist or detransition, but these women show and tell what that can be like. By joining together as a group, the PRP women are offering an alternative vision that we haven’t seen in quite this way previously (although there have been some really inspiring detransitioners who’ve been writing and vlogging about their experiences for several years now). I really think their insights and experiences will help many people in the years to come—and that includes not only those who detransition/desist and their families, but also others who continue to live as trans-identified people.
Obviously, it’s been a long and sometimes difficult road for both of you, starting with Chiara’s initial announcement that she was trans in late 2014. Let’s jump into that story, starting from the beginning. First, how did Chiara tell you she thought she was trans?
Chiara told me she was trans soon after her 17th birthday, in a text message consisting solely of a link to an online informed consent clinic that would prescribe testosterone for minors, with parental permission. Medical transition was her goal from the get-go, and pretty much out of the blue. She had never previously said one word about feeling “wrong” as a girl—in fact, quite the opposite. I had thought for quite some time that she was likely a lesbian (which I fully supported), but there had never been any indication that she despised her body or wished she were the opposite sex.
But we had just watched the TV series “Transparent” together, and good liberal that I’ve always been, my initial reaction was “maybe she IS trans.” If she had not abruptly and immediately expressed such an intense interest in testosterone and top surgery, I might not have embarked on a research mission which in rather short order resulted in alarm bells—primarily because I learned the effects of T are mostly irreversible, and I well remembered my own dead-certainties at age 17 that turned out to be mistaken when I got older. Her constant demand for hormones (and later “can I at least have top surgery”?), coupled with my phone calls to some gender therapists, all of whom in so many words told me if she said she was trans, then she was, intensified my skepticism.
When I asked one of the gender therapists how we could know she was trans as opposed to lesbian, she said, “Oh, it is very rare for a trans man to actually be a lesbian. Very, very rare.” Then there was the (very nice) FTM therapist who, when I mentioned Chiara had not had a full-on relationship yet, said, “A lot of trans teens just skip that step” and added “he’d” be welcome at the next trans teen support group that week. I actually did schedule an appointment with this therapist, as well as signed her up for the group, until my crash online course in all things trans made me think better of it and cancel. Not long after, Chiara and I together found a therapist who used a mental-health (vs. “affirmative”) model and agreed to work with Chiara without enabling medical transition.
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Chiara, why do you think you came to believe you were transgender? What forces were acting on you?
At the time, I of course believed that I was “a man trapped in a woman’s body,” and that I would truly not survive if I was not allowed to transition. (I wasn’t constantly or seriously suicidal, though I had ideation at times—it was more that I saw no future for myself as female; the only option in my mind was living as male. Additionally, suicide rates by trans-identified kids are misrepresented and used to threaten and manipulate people into “validating” identities without question.) In hindsight, however, I was struggling to deal with trauma, internalized homophobia, and social isolation. I was at a vulnerable place, and not all that happy being a girl, so I latched onto a trans identity almost as soon as I first heard about it online.
Was there a lot of talk about suicide online? If so, did that influence you in any way?
There was a large amount, the most notable being the case of Leelah Alcorn, an MtF teenager who committed suicide in 2014. Her death affected me, along with many others, as it was sensationalized and widely held up as a warning to parents: “This is what happens when you don’t let your kid transition.” This mantra continues to be repeated online and everywhere, and perpetuates the idea that suicide is the “only way out” for kids whose parents will not accept their gender identity—this is a false statement that should under no circumstance be peddled to impressionable young people.
What made you feel unhappy about being a girl?
I was dealing with trauma, which caused me to want to escape my body. This, in addition to my resistance to accepting my same-sex attraction, resulted in a rejection of being female.
How did your dysphoria manifest itself? What “triggered” it for you?
It came on in the span of a couple months, but was still a fairly gradual process. The main triggers were my increased usage of social media, which facilitated my exposure to trans ideology and activism, as well as my social isolation and beginning to learn about and come to terms with past trauma. My dysphoria caused me to adopt an appearance that was as masculine as possible—I cut my hair short, wore men’s clothes, bound my chest, and packed off and on for over a year. I even used the men’s bathrooms in public, and felt good about myself when I passed successfully.
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Denise, as every parent knows who has experienced something similar, hearing your daughter suddenly declare she is transgender and tell you she needs hormones immediately is very stressful. How did you cope?
Starting the website—which was initially a cry into the wilderness, just hoping to find and speak to other parents who were skeptical of their teen’s desire to embark on medical transition—was crucial in helping me to cope with the situation. I suspect there would have been more arguments and difficult times between Chiara and me if I had not had the outlet of writing and finding others online who were in the same boat.
Pretty much all my “in real life” friends at the time were lifelong liberals/lefties like me, who saw (as I had) everything to do with trans activism as purely and simply the next civil rights movement; they hadn’t had a reason to look into some of the more controversial aspects because their lives hadn’t been touched by the issue. So, for the most part, I couldn’t talk to them openly about what was happening in my family.
This was, of course, a very difficult time for Chiara as well. She wanted desperately to transition. Did you make any concessions to her at the time?
I did. At her request, I bought boxer shorts, “men’s” clothing, “men’s” dress shoes, and repeatedly paid for very short haircuts. I was happy to do this, in part, because being “gender nonconforming” in clothing, hairstyles, etc. doesn’t mean a person is actually the opposite sex. I was well aware, however, that these outward expressions of gender meant to Chiara that she was a man (at the time). I drew the line at hormones or surgery, and I didn’t purchase the binder she asked for. (Whether she ever got a binder herself from one of the websites that offer them free, I don’t know.)
What were conversations between you like at the time?
We pretty much had a communication breakdown. Once we were a few months into it, I began to realize that I needed to say as little as possible, because after all, in just a few months, this was all going to be out of my hands (she was 17). Also, parental lectures—or even attempts at meaningful conversation—were becoming counterproductive (that can be true for any parent and teen in conflict, trans-identified or not!). When I did say something, I tried hard to be succinct, instead of going on and on. I would say things like: “You’re a strong, gender-nonconforming young woman. That doesn’t mean you are literally a man. In fact, you could be a role model for other young women in the same boat.” At the time, this all seemed to fall on deaf ears.
Like many parents in this predicament seem to do, I found and looked up to young, detransitioned women who were writing on Tumblr. I thought they somehow had “the answer.” I now know they don’t, and many—if not most—don’t appreciate parents reaching out for help. Nevertheless, I was fortunate to be able to meet two detransitioners I’d discovered online in person when I attended the Michigan Women’s Music Festival in 2015. They were kind enough to reach out to Chiara (with her and their permission) and I remain grateful to them for their generosity.
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Chiara, what turned things around for you? Was there anything that you read or heard that suddenly helped you realize not only that transition was not right for you but that gender identity as a concept was suspect?
At 17, as soon as I graduated high school, I moved to Florida for nine months for an internship on a horse farm. We had very little internet access, and spent most of each day performing physical labor, so I was forced to focus on something apart from trans ideology. Being disconnected from social media, specifically Tumblr and YouTube, allowed me to slowly begin rediscovering myself and my interests and by the time I returned home, I had matured (emotionally, physically, and mentally) enough to return to these social media sites with a critical eye. I found radical feminist blogs, the messages of which resonated with me, and gradually moved away from my trans identity with the support of this new community.
What appealed to you about the radical feminist blogs? What were they saying that resonated with you?
Radical feminism, being focused on women’s issues and liberation, was a breath of fresh air for me in many ways. The people writing about it online were fiercely protective of women and passionate about enacting change. The main points that appealed to me were their acceptance and celebration of lesbian and bisexual women, and their tendency to think critically and question problematic narratives—specifically prostitution, pornography, and, of course, transgenderism. They opened my eyes to the glaring issues behind trans activism (puberty blockers, misogyny, homophobia, women’s loss of rights, etc.), which allowed me to finally realize that I wanted nothing to do with the movement, and the best way for me to fight it was to simply exist as myself and stand up for other women. I definitely do not agree with every aspect of the ideology, but I believe it is the one of the only movements that truly cares about helping women.
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Denise, are you a radical feminist?
I like to think of myself as a “rational” feminist. Some of the tenets of radical feminism seem more ideological than logical—for example, the notion that humans are essentially “blank slates,” with all gendered behaviors being only social constructs. But there is a large body of replicated, cross-cultural scientific evidence that there is a biological basis to typical sex differences, and even some typical gendered behaviors, many of which are rooted in evolutionary selective pressures. Again, we’re talking about averages; individuals should never be assumed to be average. Being gender-atypical doesn’t mean anyone’s brain is mistakenly stuck in the wrong body. Historically, some of the more interesting, accomplished humans have been atypical for their sex. And, importantly, many—though not all—gender-atypical kids grow up to be lesbian, gay, or bisexual adults. This has long been well understood, though in the last few years, the trans movement has obscured this knowledge. There is a very real (even if unintended) risk that proto-LGB kids will be unnecessarily medicalized before they are old enough to realize and accept their sexuality. We already see many detransitioned lesbians who themselves say their difficulty accepting their sexual orientation contributed to their transient trans identification. (Of the essays I’ve written, I am perhaps most proud of the one I wrote on this subject, “The surgical suite: Modern-day closet for today’s teen lesbian”).
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Chiara, you mentioned that internalized homophobia played a role in your belief that you were trans. Why were you more comfortable identifying as a trans man than a lesbian?
In many ways, it felt easier for me to exist as a gender-conforming, “typical” man, as opposed to a gay, gender-nonconforming woman. As I mentioned in my recent interview, I think a lot of my desire to transition was based on a fantasy version of myself as a man—I was convinced that all discrimination against me would disappear as soon as I became a straight man. I also believe that our society is still largely heteronormative and somewhat homophobic, and gay people are often subjected to judgement, hate crimes, and insults. This is something many young people begin realizing in their teenage years, and it is understandably tempting to want to escape those experiences.
Did you talk to a therapist about your questions about gender identity? Did you find the therapy helpful or counterproductive?
I have been in and out of therapy for many years. It was incredibly helpful for me in many regards, and I strongly believe it should be utilized to determine factors contributing to dysphoria, before medical transition is permitted. The two long-term therapists I’ve had in the last few years have allowed me the space to explore mental health, come to terms with past events, and build the skills necessary to advance my life in the direction that I want. I hope that therapists will begin to educate themselves on both sides of gender ideology, and use this knowledge to encourage critical thinking in anyone who may be questioning a trans identity.
What were the things you think your mom got right in parenting you during the period when you identified as trans, and what do you think she got wrong? What could she have done better?
I am grateful that she never allowed medical transition, as I am sure I would have regretted it. I also appreciate that she put me in contact with a couple of detransitioned women, as well as paying for therapy for me to discuss issues behind my dysphoria.
But there were times in which I felt that my privacy was invaded, and this made it difficult for me to trust her intentions. I also had my phone taken away. While I understand that she truly felt that was for the best, I do not believe that trying to cut me off from the internet was helpful—I had multiple other ways to access it without my phone anyway, so this only caused resentment and anger on my end. I do understand that this was a very stressful time for her, but I believe that she could have been more careful about how she phrased several things, and stepped back to look at how some of her actions would impact me in the future.
Teens and their parents often have a hard time communicating with each other, even when the trans issue isn’t on the table. Were the arguments you had with your mom around this subject always counterproductive, or did she occasionally say things that stuck with you and helped you (eventually) see things differently? Conversely, do you think your mom was eventually able to understand some of what you were going through and trying to tell her?
At the time, most of our arguments did nothing to change my mind or outlook. At that point in my life, I was reluctant to change my opinions and take advice, especially from my mother. I can look back now and agree with a lot of what she expressed to me, and I do think that some things she said stuck with me and helped me to open my mind to the idea that transition was not the right path for me. I believe that she did eventually understand a lot of what I was feeling, but it was an unfamiliar topic to her at first.
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Denise, do you have any regrets? Were there any things that you wished you had done differently?
I do have regrets about how I handled some things. I was not (and am not) a perfect parent, and I think the increased stress we both experienced during that time damaged our relationship. We’d been very close pre-puberty, but along with the other garden-variety issues that arise for parents and teens weathering adolescence, the trans issue turned the stress-volume up to max. One night, when Chiara was screaming about how awful I was not to approve medical intervention, I screamed back that she should just leave. I immediately wished I hadn’t said it. She didn’t leave, and I never took any steps to kick her out, but I know how much that must have hurt and probably still does. I’ve apologized, but I still wish I could take it back because I never meant it.
Monitoring and restricting her social media and (temporarily) confiscating her phone are things I feel more conflicted about. At the time, it seemed to me that she was being inducted into a cult: the obsessive nature of her wanting “the two Ts” (testosterone and top surgery), scripted language, and a seeming refusal to examine or explore what might be underlying this (as well as a general refusal to talk to me about much of anything) resulted in my feeling desperate to know what was going on inside her, and to try to keep her safe in any way I could. Besides the rumination on being trans 24-7, her grades had dropped from As and Bs to Ds and Fs, she nearly dropped out of high school, she had drifted away from all the friends who had previously been important to her, and totally abandoned all her hobbies and interests.
In an ideal world, I would not have invaded her privacy, and I know from my own teen years how such actions feel like a huge betrayal of trust. Something similar happened to me when I myself was 17. I discovered one day that my dad had searched my closet and confiscated a baggie of marijuana I had hidden beside a diary. I still remember the burning outrage. I confronted my father and for many years could not forgive him. Now, of course, I can understand how worried he was about me and the choices I’d been making. But whether what he did was justified, or whether my similar actions with Chiara were justified? I’m not sure.
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Chiara, on the PRP website, you, Dagny, Helena, and Jesse state plainly that you all experienced rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) as described in the paper published by Dr. Lisa Littman last year, but trans activists have tried to dismiss and discredit Dr. Littman’s research, claiming it is based entirely on the claims of bigoted, transphobic parents. Why do you believe that you experienced ROGD? How would you respond to Dr. Littman’s critics?
I believe that ROGD is a very real phenomenon, because I, myself, and many others only began experiencing dysphoria around our teenage years, seemingly in response to significant changes or struggles. I did not begin to have dysphoria until I was a young teenager, and had no desire to transition until I began hearing about others doing so. I became obsessed with the idea that I was a man, and completely fixated on medical transition as the only viable option for me. Since I can look back now and understand that I would not have been happy long-term with that decision, I am very confident in Littman’s study, and believe that discrediting it as “transphobia” is wildly irresponsible. I find it very strange that trans activists see any inkling of criticism as a direct, “violent” attack.
You mentioned that you had no desire to transition until you heard about others doing so. Did your dysphoria increase the more you learned about gender identity and transition?
Absolutely. The more information I consumed on the topic, the more adamant I was that transition was right for me. Other people’s hormonal and surgical results appealed to me at the time, and I desperately wanted that for myself. It was a vicious circle: the more I watched, the more my dysphoria grew, and the more my dysphoria grew, the more I needed to “escape” in the form of this addictive media.
Why do you think so many young people—especially girls—have come to see themselves as transgender?
In many ways, it is incredibly difficult and often painful to exist as a woman in society. Dealing with harassment and strict gender roles is a daily ordeal, and media often portrays us as infantile, sexualized, and unconditionally available to men. Women are targets of assault and murder simply because of their sex—the idea of escaping that, which transitioning to male promises to provide, is very attractive.
What do you think it will take to wake people up to the harm that’s being done in the name of gender ideology?
Honestly, I think this is already starting to happen. The response to our project alone has been big (over 20K video views in the first two weeks) and overwhelmingly positive, which gives me hope that more and more people are beginning to realize the negative effects of this movement. Also, many of the young people who transitioned when the movement was beginning to really take hold a few years ago are now detransitioning, and their voices are growing in number. I am grateful to be part of a project to raise them up, because I believe those experiences are very important and should be shared in order to educate others.
Trans activists claim that only a tiny percentage of people who transition regret their transitions. Do you think the number is this low?
No, I believe that the percentage is actually fairly high. People claim that less than 3% of trans people detransition, but since detransitioners are routinely silenced and discounted, I am hesitant to accept that number as accurate. Also, this estimate generally fails to account for people who desist–that is, abandon a trans identity before taking hormones or undergoing surgery.
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Denise, do you agree?
Yes. And with organizations like Gender Spectrum promulgating immediate affirmation of youth trans identities, we’re likely to see more in the future. Plus, many who detransition don’t return to their gender therapists/MDs, nor are they being systematically tracked otherwise. And regardless of how many detransitioners there are, they matter. Their voices matter. And it shouldn’t be seen as “transphobic” or even controversial to ask that we try—as a society, as parents, as clinicians, even as trans activists—to minimize the number of people who will later feel they were harmed by believing they were trans; particularly people who were irreversibly harmed by medical intervention they later come to regret.
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Chiara, what would you say to the activists and legislators who are pushing for legislation that would make it illegal for therapists to encourage clients to explore why they feel they must transition?
I think that would be blatant malpractice. The job of a therapist is to help people overcome issues and develop the best life possible, and transition is not always the right way forward. This would also prevent therapists from digging into deeper issues behind dysphoria. If this law were to go into effect, if would only increase the number of young people who would later detransition.
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Denise, why have you decided to “come out” now?
After Chiara and her compatriots launched Pique Resilience, I realized we were in a new phase—both as mother and daughter, as well as in the greater effort to raise awareness about the complex issues to do with youth transition. Until now, it was of utmost importance to me to protect Chiara’s identity and privacy, so very little information about her was ever included in anything I wrote. Her courage in bringing her story to light has inspired me to step forward as well. There’s nothing to be ashamed of, anyway. Many families have had very similar experiences to our own, and the more of us who are able to speak publicly about our lives, the better.
I suspect detractors might claim the only reason Chiara desisted is because of something I’ve done or said to somehow cajole her into doing it; that she’ll “retransition” in the future. Or maybe: 4thWaveNow is the master puppeteer pulling the strings of the Pique Resilience Project. But Chiara is an adult, supporting herself, living on her own, making her own decisions. And I’m pretty sure the other three women in PRP are also very much their own persons! As far as our family situation, I feel quite certain that if Chiara had decided to pursue transition (and she told me she absolutely planned to, as recently as age 18), she’d have gone ahead with it. Then I’d be in the position of coming to terms with that decision, which I know I would have. She’s my child. I’ll love her no matter what she does, whether I agree with it or not.
Trans activists have worked very hard to deny the experiences and observations of families impacted by an abrupt onset of gender dysphoria. Just a couple of days ago, trans activist and writer Julia Serano penned a long Medium article, as well as a tweet thread, in which she paints ROGD as some sort of coordinated, grand conspiracy cooked up by bigoted parents and backwards clinicians. It’s strange that activists like Serano (along with many others) refuse to believe there could be some young people (the majority of them female) who identify as trans due to social contagion and other issues (which Chiara and the other women of Pique Resilience Project have eloquently talked about in their videos and social media postings). Why can’t Serano et al understand that people are talking about their own lived experiences? The fact is, if there’s any mutual effort on the part of those of us who’ve experienced or observed ROGD, it’s simply a “grand conspiracy” to tell the truth.
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Chiara, what would you say to trans activists who might claim your mother has brainwashed you into believing that you’re not trans? (They tend to say that about any parent whose kid desisted.)
Parents are often demonized, called “abusive,” and beaten down by trans activists if they dare to question whether transition is right for their child. Parents are generally not in the habit of brainwashing their children—rather, most want to protect and support them. Asking your child to think critically and consider other factors at play is not abusive, it’s just parenting. Further, I am an adult fully capable of making my own decisions and formulating my own opinions. My decision to desist was mostly due to my own experiences and research, not a result of my mother forcing an ideology.
When did you first learn that your mom was the founder of 4thWaveNow?
Just a few months ago, not long after we started Pique Resilience, and years after I desisted. I was very surprised, mainly because I had no idea that my mom was running a blog at all, let alone one of this size. I completely respect and support all the work that has gone into it; it’s become one of the largest and most-visited sites providing an alternate viewpoint, and I’m grateful for the support it gives to both young people and their parents.
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Denise, do you have anything to say to those who criticize parents when they do not immediately affirm their children’s belief that they are transgender?
One of the most pernicious things trans activists and some gender clinicians do is try to drive a wedge between young trans-identified people and their families. While there are certainly abusive parents, the vast majority of us who have serious reservations about the medicalization of our gender-atypical youth do love and care about our kids and only want the best for them. We do our best, given our own personalities and weaknesses (as well as our strengths). While the time during which Chiara believed she was trans was very difficult for us and brought out the worst in us both, I’m very grateful we have moved toward healing the rifts between us, though we have further to go. Above all, I’m very glad that Chiara and the other three intrepid women of the Pique Resilience Project have started their own effort to help young people like them.
When it comes to how this increase in young (mostly) women who believe they’re men will ultimately play out, no one knows; it’s going to unfold over the next few years and decades. But I can say this: the future of the movement to raise awareness about this issue does not belong to 4thWaveNow, or parents. It belongs to resilient young women like Chiara and her friends and colleagues. They are the ones who will make the world a better place for their generation and the next generation of gender-atypical young people to come.
Oh my gosh, knock me over with a feather! Didn’t see the connection coming at all. Chiara and Denise, thank you so much for sharing your experiences, and a shout out to all individuals and families who are ready to step up now and lend a helping hand to people who have questions about gender identity and detransition. I completely understand how ROGD could seem like an existential threat to trans people–I imagine there is a profound need for those experiencing gender dysphoria to describe it as innate and neurobiological and not a condition that is sometimes developmental and temporary. But it would be so much better for EVERYONE if researchers were able to gather data without harassment and examine medical interventions dispassionately. Doctors could then figure out best practices on who needs what when and not fly blind on who is likely to persist and who is likely to regret transition.
And let’s stop with the misinformation that detransitioners are really just gay or Autistic. Using that to make our argument plausible is anything but.
It’s incredible to me that you have both done sooo much to try to help anyone effected by this and it turns out you are mother and daughter!! I really can’t even begin to explain how this site has helped me keep
My sanity over the past few years. I really thought I was losing my mind when my child first came out and everyone just accepted it as fact even though there was no noted dysphoria until becoming part of a peer group where over half medically transitioned. My young adult child began hormones over a year ago so I have had to come to terms with this. I show my love and support in many ways and our relationship is on a positive track. BUT…. we really don’t speak much about the decision to medically transition and I don’t pay for the hormones. I have come to realize just how much I can accept and still live a mostly happy life. I’m just so sad of the possible harms that hormones may bring to the child that I have protected, nourished and unconditionally loved their whole life. So thank you so much Denise for keeping me from going under. And Chiara you are an amazing young woman who is doing such an important task. I always believed that detransitioners are the ones to change the narrative. So many are so eloquent and truly insightful and inspiring. I do still hope my child can come to terms with the body they were born in but I know I can still have a loving relationship with them no matter what. Thank you both again and much love and happiness to you both.
I have always admired 4thWave now and I’m even more impressed hearing your back story. I am hopeful that more of my friends who, like yours, have supported the Trans phenomenon unthinkingly are beginning to understand what it really at stake. Well done both of you.
You are both class acts! Your stories need to be front page news.
Thank you 4thwavenow for helping our family – reading and researching 4thwavenow’s well referenced articles helped us to understand that there is not just one solution of affirming your child’s transgender identity as proposed by therapists.
Thank you Chiara (and PRP) for helping countless others by bringing a dose of reasoned, critical analysis to kids and families suffering with gender dysphoria. Your truth needs to be heard.
My daughter’s story has some similarities to yours – especially Chiara’s quote “I was at a vulnerable place, and not all that happy being a girl, so I latched onto a trans identity almost as soon as I first heard about it online.” In my (desisted) daughter’s words, “I realized that I just wanted a reason for the way I felt, that the second I found this seemingly possible solution, I grasped onto it and wouldn’t let go. It seemed like the perfect solution; it came with something to fight for as well. There were others like me, and it felt good to finally belong somewhere.”
People need to understand that adolescents are getting the idea that they are transgender from an external input. They are vulnerable to this idea due to one or more of several possible internal struggles that can apply to almost any kid – such as anxiety disorders, homosexuality, and autism.
One would think that transactivists and transgender people would want to understand how to tell the difference (with reliable diagnostic criteria) between someone who will go on to have intractable gender dysphoria all their life and possibly benefit from transition and someone whose gender dysphoria will resolve and who would feel nearly ruined or hurt by transition.
I don’t think it’s even that simple. I have GD, and have had from as young as I can remember. I considered transitioning long before the internet, when there was really no information or understanding about trans issues. It’s never gone away, and I’m mid-40s now.
However, growing older does change your outlook on life, a lot. In my 20s I hated women and only ever hung around with guys (hated clothes, make-up, pulling guys and everything other women wanted to do and talk about; loved beer and pool). Now, I have loads of female friends, many who are similar – they love music and sport and often also don’t have the husband and kids women are “supposed” to have, many are quite male in outlook. I also still have tonnes of male friends.
As you get older, things start to go wrong, and often these will be related to your sex. Your body doesn’t care about your gender. It would be really horrible to have lived and passed as a man all your life, then end up in a gynacology ward. I also feel my female friends are really important to me as I get older – those relationships are deeper and more supportive than the male ones.
So I’m very glad I didn’t transition, even though I still have the GD and still feel like ‘a man stuck in a female body’. I suspect I’d have been quite happy if I had transitioned; but equally, I’ve learned to accept the way I am – contradicted and decidedly unfeminine – and live quite happily that way too. There is never only one way.
That is cool that you found peace with your life in the gender that corresponds with you sex. Congrats on discovering who you are.
I also came from a time when there was little information about and news of LGBT individuals facing discrimination and violence/murder.
For me, I’ve recently started to accept myself as a trans individual. In my youth, I was proudly gender non-conforming. I suffered from dysphoria– not knowing at the time what that was. But I also was the kind of teenager who didn’t care what others thought of me. I was often mislabeled by peers as queer.
I used to solidly believe that everyone of my birth sex felt how I did– which manifested some incredibly sexist ideas of my sex. I also used to solidly believe that if gender roles and stereotypes were not enforced then there would be no need for transitioning even though I felt uncomfortable with my gender.
By having this worldview, I never thought about myself as being trans– society was just a bunch of assholes and that’s why I felt such a disconnect. I used to tell myself this all the time until I realized how I feel would remain the same even if the gender stereotypes were reversed, even if the societal issues faced by my sex were no longer present.
I think this is a good thought experiment to have with your children who’s feelings you are skeptical of. Find out how they feel that their gender and sex is misaligned. Then get them to imagine a world where all of their social issues pertaining to their feelings are resolved– would they still want to transition or would they be comfortable as their gender==sex.
Denise and Chiara,
I am incredibly grateful to both of you for all your work.
I also think that part of the reason why ROGD is so prevalent these days is because of the internet. On YouTube, you see all these transgender transition slideshows. The patients say that before the gender transition, they were “miserable”, but afterwards, say that they’ve “never been happier”. This causes other young people to take the route of transition, and not just because of desperation for help. They see all the attention and blanket praise that these people get when they put their transitions out to the world, and this inspires them to want some of the attention as well.
That eas an awesome read!
Like mother, like daughter!!! Truly inspiring!
That was awesome! I’ve also enjoyed watching several recent YouTube interview videos with Benjamin A Boyce and the Pique Resistance Project. Just a thought, you might enjoy reading my Animus Diet which explores (through a Jungian lens) how I spent the last three years trying to find balance between my masculine and feminine sides. Perhaps this kind of “diet” could work as a way forward for many (with an Anima Diet for men).
I’ve followed up my Animus adventures up with “The Divine Hermaphrodite” essay/prose article. If this doesn’t resonate for you, that’s okay, I just wanted to offer up another lens, another way of looking and how by exploring Jung’s work, it greatly helped me. Anyhow, keep up the good work and thank you so much for sharing your truth and experiences with the world. Blessings, Deborah.
Where can i find Animus Diet or The Divine Hermaphrodite? I’d be interested in reading them. thanks for sharing the resource
Thank you for your interest Ianna. Here’s a link to my Jungian archives: http://theliberatedsheep.com/category/jungianarchives/ I wrote the Animus Diet in 4 parts over a three year journey. You’ll find my Divine Hermaphrodite essay/prose on the first page and Part 1 of the Animus Diet on the 2nd page, both are Jungian themed.
A truly relevant story on ROGD which sets out the truths and consequences of gender transition. A must read for anyone considering surgery.
I salute you both.
Did not see that coming; wow! Have been following Chiara and the other PRP sisters; they’re doing such great work. It is so cool to see the 4thwave connection now.
Chiara, you’re a great critical thinker. My daughter is the same age as you but very far from the level of self-examination and society-examination that you’ve achieved. I can only hope that she gets there eventually. Congratulations on brilliantly navigating a tough road and coming through in such great shape. Eager to see what’s next for you.
Denise, I’ve been around here since 2015 (unfortunately!) and still have a kid in gender limbo. I’m so grateful for all the work you and your collaborators have done and continue to do. As you’ve often said, you’re doing the work that the mainstream media OUGHT to be doing. Thanks for hanging in there for all this time, and continuing to do so, at such a frustrating and (surely) painful job.
Thank you both for this, and thank you, Denise, for 4th Wave. I am a woman now divorced from a trans identified male. Although this site was designed for parents, it was one of my lifelines as I tried to understand what had just happened in my marriage after my then 58-year old husband made his out-of-the-blue announcement that he was “a woman in a man’s body” and planned to transition. The posts and links on this site to other blogs and the research cited was sanity-saving, giving me both factual information and the comfort of knowing that I wasn’t alone that helped me combat the charge that I was transphobic.
Thank you, Chiara, for the shout out to gender critical feminism, as well. I am a former director of a women’s studies program at a small liberal arts college, and it was a blow to find that my experience with my now-ex–whose version of woman was a pornified, misogynist, and stereotypical depiction of woman and femininity (exactly what you objected to!)–put me at odds with the feminist community I had spent my entire intellectual and academic life in service to. When I most needed that movement and its feminist solidarity, a movement that had been dedicated to advancing the cause of equality for women–natal females–I found that it had somehow in a few short years morphed into one that accepted self-identity as a criteria for the definition of woman, accepted the non-scientific and illogical formulations of “If I feel like a woman than I am one” and “I can be a woman/man in a man’s/woman’s body,” and, alarmingly, failed to see the harms this could cause to natal females/women, whose safety was being compromised as trans-identified males were allowed into women’s spaces (including women’s prisons, where women have been assaulted by trans-identified males, or domestic violence shelters, where trans-identified males demand to work merely to validate their sense of themselves as woman at the expense of terrorized natal females). I, too, felt a huge relief when I finally encountered gender critical feminism, and was able to again feel I did have a place in feminism and hadn’t been put at odds with feminism or ejected from the sisterhood. It makes me so very happy, and even optimistic, to see that such intelligent, critical-minded women like you and your sisters are carrying the torch and movement forward.
Hi, the article itself doesn’t appear to be here, I can only see the comments, just read the article on East German doping, that was fine, I’m sure I’m missing something but I can’t see this article anywhere 😢
Try refreshing your browser? Or open a tab with this article again.
https://4thwavenow.com/2019/02/27/a-grand-conspiracy-to-tell-the-truth-an-interview-with-4thwavenow-founder-her-daughter-chiara-of-the-pique-resilience-project/
Same here; glad to know it’s not just me. 4thWaveNow, it’s this current article that you just posted that we can’t see.
Oh, it’s the link on Twitter. Got it. Just load this link in another tab on your browser.
https://4thwavenow.com/2019/02/27/a-grand-conspiracy-to-tell-the-truth-an-interview-with-4thwavenow-founder-her-daughter-chiara-of-the-pique-resilience-project/
I can see it now — thank you! What a great read, from a parent who’s been following you since your very first post. And you both have my extreme admiration for “coming out” publicly. The transactivists will not be kind, and I wish you both much strength and courage.
Just as a tech aside, the article will does show up here in Cyberfox, which is the ‘low-rent’ cousin of Firefox….And the PRP site in full does as well……*S*
Heidi Krieger was a East German who was unknowingly doped. She felt GD before the drugs, but the drugs made her even more dysphoric. Eventually, she transitioned.
It was so good to read this. Denise has brought a lot of parents together and helped us to feel that we’re not crazy in our thinking. Many offshoots have come out of 4thWaveNow. Hopefully her daughter can do the same with young women (or men, pre-teens and teens) who have fallen under the transgender spell during the time of social media. How great that there has been 20k video views in the first 2 weeks!
Is the Gordian Knot beginning to unravel? Only time will tell.
This is wonderful news–
congratulations to Denise and to Chiara!
This blog has been invaluable to families seeking balanced information.
Parents have come together to form a community.
Looking forward to more Pique Resistance videos, Chiara.
Thank you Denise, for being a beacon of hope & sanity.
Looking forward to seeing you both interviewed by these publications:
The New York Times
The Washington Post.
Harper’s
The Atlantic
The New Yorker
Psychology of Sexual Orientation and Gender Diversity (journal)
Pediatrics (journal)
Journal of Adolescent Health
Thanks for this and thanks so much for the Pique Resistance Project. I’m really hoping my 18 yr old will find the PRP YouTube channel. I don’t dare show it to her right now though for fear that it will become parentally-tainted.
I am struck by the similarities in the Trans community and the Anti-Vaccine community. There were lots of alternative hippie mamas who didn’t want to vaccinate their kids when my kids were little. I got sucked into it a little and delayed some vaccines but felt really chagrined when my kids got older and wanted to make sure they were all caught up. They knew the science on it. Where is the science on ROGD and Trans? I think we are going to have a generation that has more to overcome than catching up on a few shots.
Thank you Chiara and Denise for your worthy efforts. I hope Chiara’s voice resonates with other young people who have become confused by gender ideology so that they too may critically think about their choices. Widening the space for young people to question the trans narrative, to reject it at their free will, and to publicly talk about it is important.
We must remember that ROGD affects gender conforming youth as well as GNC and males as well as females. The one thing in common among those affected is their age, from early adolescence to young adulthood. As a society we must demand the medical community decouple the process of growing up with the process of transitioning. We must demand of medicine that natal bodies remain intact and fully functioning until a determined age when one is less suspect to social contagion and undue influence. I suspect when we really look at the science behind brain development, undue influence and social contagion we will see this age closer to 30 or beyond.
Establishing an age below which medical interventions should be prohibited is common sense but I also believe we need to demand an inquiry into medical ethics and public policy. Do the ends in these procedures ever justify the means? Just because we can administer medicine and perform surgeries, does this mean we should especially in light of the fact a person might be physically healthy and cannot actually become the opposite sex? Do we forgo physical health for the great unknown in mental health outcome? The younger patients and quicker transitions today should give us great pause, especially against the tainted historical background of the medical transition industry and the voices of past detransitioners. Is not gender dysphoria a problem of the mind? Is not this also a problem of society, a society that is strangely regressing into stereotypical expectations of what it means to be a man or a woman, where behaviors outside the norms are criticized and medicalized?
These are all hard questions that won’t come with quick answers. Should we not request some action today though on the part of authoritative bodies who have more than enough evidence (and have for quite some time) to act in what appears to be a national health crisis? How can the authorities sit back and allow puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones to continue to flow and allow body parts to continue to be excised in people so young? Past history, detransitioners, and all the efforts on behalf of parents, blogs, feminists, panelists, journalists should demand that the authorities are accountable to the mounting evidence. Thank you for being a part of that.
My daughter “came out” as transgender in the summer of 2015 and I found this site later that fall. So it’s been over 3 years and it’s been a much appreciated place to meet up with other parents and compare notes. Thank you so much Denise for your hard work…all of the research you’ve done, all of the digging, all of the shining a light on unbelieveable medical practices.
Chiara, best wishes to you, you are a strong person and you have a bright and healthy future ahead of you. You are lucky to have such a loving Mother. One of the things that I’ve found so helpful in this mind-bending through-the-looking-glass unexpected event in my family’s life is learning about overexcitabilities of the most gifted minds and a need to go through a period of “positive disintegration” in a pathway towards greater self-awareness. This article explores how it overlaps with gender dysphoria and maybe you’ll find it interesting too. https://www.thirdfactor.org/intensity-gender-dysphoria/
Question for Chiara (and Denise). How much of your identifying as Trans do you think was maybe about teenage rebellion? I don’t even know that it was for you, but just wonder if you’ve pondered that possibility? Much of what is going on, with my own daughter included, seems so much a part of just the pangs of growing up and the natural need to rebel, and I wonder often how this plays into that. The very real difference being that for some bizarre reason, teen angst has been medicalized. We are trying very hard not to have the gender question be something that we butt heads about, but i try to remind her gently that no one can tell a woman what it means to be a woman, that no one is really conformist, and that’s a great thing – but only as the opportunity naturally arises. And, of course, that you can’t escape reality. It’s hard to trust the future. I sure know that.
At any rate, thanks to both of you for all you’re doing. Love 4thWave and recently discovered PRP and really appreciate all your viewpoints.
Thank you for this. It gives me hope. Thank you both for being brave and sharing your story.
I have lurked here for a few years now, as the mother of a detransitioned daughter. I just wanted to thank you so much, Denise, really from so deep inside my heart, for this website. As others have said, it was a source of sanity.
When my daughter suddenly told me she was trans, I connected with two other parents in my community who had trans kids (and as we live in a liberal pocket of a big city, there were lots of them- I know 10) and wondered what on earth to do, expecting them to agree with me that this is madness. They just told me to “get with the program” and that I had to get to a gender clinic (re-education camp?). The public schools changed my daughter’s name without even telling me. People in the community told me my “son” was so lucky to have a mom who was so “cool with it”. I wanted to scream “I am so NOT cool with it”. Even in my own home, my kids and the grandparents jumped on the bandwagon and pretended that all was great when our formerly-happy daughter turned into our miserable son. And I had to go along with it! I was silenced. I wanted to explode. This anonymous website, with these other wonderful anonymous parents- I don’t know your names but I felt like you were greater allies than the people I saw every day- was the only place where I felt sane. What you have done is… I am just so grateful. Thank you.
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Thank you for this enlightening article. Most parents want to do the best for their teens, and your insights, Chiara, give us a little glimpse into what our own teens might be feeling (and a few clues of things NOT to do). Anything that helps deepen understanding and our ability to support our teens their their own journeys of self-discovery is a true gift. Thank you xxx (mom of a teen previously identifying as transgender, now identifying as non-binary).
Any de-transitioners out there that are young men? I could certainly utilize some help in dealing with what appears to be ROGD in my teen-age son. I appreciate stumbling onto this blog. Thank you very much for your insight.
Thank you so much for sharing your stories! I hadn’t ever given much thought to trans issues until recently, just a blanket assumption that I wanted to be a tolerant person so of course I supported whatever people needed to be fulfilled and healthy. A couple of news stories recently about trans women athletes and shutting down female-only spaces surprised me and made me think, ‘Hang on, what’s actually going on here?’ And the more I looked into it – things are just getting nuts!
I am the mother of an 18 month old daughter so it all feels a bit more personal as well. I have no idea how she’s going to grow up, but she is super physically strong and has a strong expressive personality and I hope that she always feels like she can express her gender however the hell she wants without it needing to have any medical implications for her body. I had troubled teenage years and had an awful time falling in love with my female best friend – I don’t really want to think about what might have happened to me back then if I had access to a vast social media full of rose coloured narratives about transitioning.
I really appreciate the resource of this blog.
I am a Desperate mother of an 18 y old girl who cane out to us last fall that she wants to transition. She was always boyish and a tomb boy. She started dressing like a boy awhile ago. Last year I agreed to cutting hair short and even supported her clothing style, including buying her boys underwear, although all of this made me sick.
She has other health issues and also sees a therapist. Both her primary doctor and therapist are supporting her. I don’t have access to her medical records and cannot talk to her doctors as she is considered adult. I begged her doctor not to support her vision to no luck.
I am desperate and don’t know what to do. She talked to me but I can’t change her mind. She tells me she hates herself in her body and she will not be happy unless she becomes a man.
I found a chest binder she is using which was gifted to her by one of her friends. I also know that in her small friends circle she is called he and by the name she picked for herself.
I don’t know what to do. Somebody please tell me!
Elle, I know all of this is scary. I think the most important thing parents can do is try to see what is appealing to their kids (of any age) about being/seen differently. Lots of women feel constrained by the beauty norms and cultural expectations (be sexy, become a mother, etc) of being female. Changing clothing and hairstyles are low-stakes ways to explore gender and identity. And make no mistake, “exploring gender” has become a wide-spread rite of passage for many young adults.
My suggestion is to stop feeling desperate. Instead, get curious. Realize that a lot of young people never move beyond socially transitioning to medical intervention. The best you can work toward, IMO, since your kid is an adult, is to encourage time to explore before taking medical action AND, if worse comes to worst, keeping the door open for her to always make a different choice if she does embark on a medical pathway. If you believe that shooting up testosterone for a few months will ruin her beyond repair, it will be a lot harder for her to ever change her mind. Why, if one is already ruined, bother making a different choice?
Those most likely to take their time are those who don’t feel pushed to prove their transness (to themselves, to others). Don’t push. Walk the talk – why can’t a woman wear clothes from a different part of the store or have short hair? Don’t contribute to the (shallow, myopic, regressive, sexist) ideas that’ve bled all over youth culture that only girls can…..only boys do……..
There is identity and then there is material reality. Separate the two. If your kid feels like “she will not be happy unless she becomes a man” realize that there are valid reasons why she believes that and help make it possible/acceptable for her to explore what that means in non-medical ways.
These are some questions to ask yourself and, if your child is willing to talk to you, ask her:
What is torturous about being/seen as female? What would help?
What would be better about being/seen as a man?
Why can’t all of the answers to the above questions happen in an un-medicalized body?
What does your child need to feel safer, more connected?
What are some things you can do to help?
Some things to read/watch you might find helpful:
Carey is a therapist and a detransitioned woman. This is part 1 of a series of articles for parents: https://medium.com/@mariacatt42
Pique Resilience – the group of desisted and detransitioned women Chiara is a member of: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmGEMjyAwk6R1lTmG_JjLUA/videos
Sasha Ayad is a therapist who works with dysphoric young people:
https://inspiredteentherapy.com/blog/
Great video w/Sasha about how to help your kids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmODs8eOR8g
Finding the Middle Ground – advice to parents from a desisted woman: https://4thwavenow.com/2019/10/05/finding-middle-ground-the-importance-of-empathy/
Get really clear about the difference between gender/identity and sex https://aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison
Take care of yourself, too
I want to say I know there are true cases, I do believe that. Gay? no problem. The truth is what I want whatever it is. But there’s a social contagion here and the numbers are climbing. Her guidance counselor at school said ” let me guees?” He knew what I was calling about. I was calling to see what sex Ed is teaching, not to tell about her statement. But he said the school district is overwhelmed. So whether they’re teaching it or not, they’re finding affirmation and support through other students. We have 3 schools. I was dumbfounded. Help needed desperately, a good therapist in NYC. Help needed a week ago. We’re In the thick of it now. She’s clearly confused, its palpable and you can see her wheels turning. But they have that covered too, what their parents will say. They have quick exit links on most of the sites that bring them to a Wikipedia page. So dare you say the truth? And have them rebel. Everyday is a battle to stay calm and smile and I know she’s suffering. Its all about helping her. It’s breaking my heart. But I believe the parents emotions compare to being hit by an emotional Mack truck and a sense of mourning comes in when you know it’s not the truth. It’s your baby girl. I’m so angry and so sad. I have crying spells. My sleep is terrible. I’m finding it difficult to keep on such a false emotional state. I’m in an cold shower often to get myself breathing as when I’m so tense I tend to hold my breath. It’s difficult when you know what and possibly who’s behind it. You’re on a mission to save your child. They’re brainwashed. I am aware there are true cases, absolutely. Then of course it’s different. I’ve asked all the questions, I’ve looked back, had my sister look back. As we’re opposite personalities entirely, in an ongoing debate about something very often. Incase I’m being blind with an unknown belief. My daughter says she feels this way about a year. I said before we had to stay home or after? She believes after. I have to wonder about these school iPad and tablets too. We’re parents ever approached re; this? No. My nephew showed me how to get around the school monitoring in under a minute. And there’s aways more studying or a forgotten homework. GODFORBID were the cause of an unknown answer on an exam. A missed homework. I really do feel that was a huge overstep into our homes. Next is transable, where kids and adults desire a new limb despite having a perfectly healthy one. In an article link from Epoc times. The article was about Amazon stopping the sale of the book ” When Harry met Sally” ( unsure, I believe so) that isn’t against trans but is in alignment with the views shared here. Search Epoc book burning as the article is named something book burning. So now parents are finding missing limb artwork. I know I sound as crazy as they come. Believe me. But it’s there and they’re linking this in the trans sites.
On a scale of barbie to GI Joe? Really? Do you hate your period? Do you often think girls are pretty? Are you confused about who you are? ( middle school, HS) Do you feel like you don’t fit in? Wow. Just wow.
Does a post menopause or even post 40 woman reflect on her youth from time to time? They know age and psychological development. What better age to victimize. Also, these sites are clearly recruiting not true help for the genuine cases. I recall two very dear female friends making a pass at me in 7th grade. I told my mother. She said you keep that information between you and I and I, as it could hurt them socially and it’s just part of growing up, it will be what it is. You don’t feel the same, but be the friend and person you are. Keep in mind different times and it wasn’t oddly “sweeping the nation” either.
What kid doesn’t struggle with this from a greater or lesser degree? I wore combat boots and an army jacket in school. If not I had on a metal band shirt, later punk, later Tori Amos. I was not the girly girl. Then we expressed the music we loved.
Which btw, in retrospect it was very healthy. Can the kids do that now? No. Not really.
I digress is an understatement. I apologize. If anyone can recommend someone, please. I’d be grateful. I put her saving away, I’m afraid she’ll run away. She doesn’t become irate or disrespectful, she claims up. She says her piece but you’re very lucky if you can follow up or I have to feel it out.
I will keep everyone’s experience in my thoughts and prayers here. It takes a village. I hope to be able to help others at some point, because it does.
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