Note: All screenshots in this post are from publicly accessible websites.
Update 4/4/16: Lisa Toinen Mullin, whose comments on the WPATH Facebook page were featured in this post, has responded in the comments below. Please see the 4thWaveNow response here.
Update 4/1/16: How do the gender specialists and trans activists square their cavalier promotion of “trans-kid” sterilization with this: Many trans men have a fervent desire to be biological parents. By all indications, these people treasure their fertility. There are apparently so many of them that there’s a whole movement afoot to cleanse the language of birthing and reproduction of any trace of femaleness, in order not to offend trans men. For example, midwives are now admonished to say “pregnant person” instead of pregnant woman. And “vagina” and “breastfeeding” may be triggering, so must be replaced by “front hole” and “chest feeding,” respectively.
What say you, activists and pediatric transition promoters? Why would you want to deny trans kids the same opportunity to procreate that many trans men have?
I’m sure some of my regular readers must get tired of the constant reminder that puberty blockers followed by cross sex hormones results in permanent sterilization of preadolescent children. Many would probably call what I do harping. Why do I include this point in nearly every post I write?
Is it because I think every (or even most) trans-identified kids will grow up to want to be biological parents? Am I a proponent of replenishing the already overtaxed planet via endless childbearing? Am I biased in favor of reproduction because I am myself a parent?
Nope. It’s pretty damn simple. I just happen to hold the view, seen once-upon-a-time as a matter of common sense and ethics, that healthy minors should not be sterilized for any reason. That no adult has the right to sterilize a minor. That the capacity to bear offspring is a basic human right, and that a child’s reproductive capacity should be guarded by responsible adults against anyone who would even think about taking that right away before adulthood. That, by definition, no child or teenager can predict whether they’ll want to bear children later in life. (Having children is pretty much the last thing on the mind of tweens and teens—for good reason. How many 10 or 12 or 14 or even 20-year-olds have any concept of what that choice would mean?)
Duh?
But not sterilizing kids is no longer a “duh” to journalists who write parrot trans activist talking points about “trans kids.” In fact, evidently some global uber-editor has decreed that this side effect of pediatric medical transition is so unimportant, is so worth it, that it doesn’t even merit a media mention. Very rarely do I see even a sentence acknowledging the guaranteed future sterility of trans kids who have followed the typical path from blockers to hormones. And I have never seen a mainstream journalist take up the issue as a moral conundrum, something to investigate in more depth.
So as long as the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Guardian, and the rest of the Fourth Estate (more like, the Fifth Column) continue to ignore that kids are being sterilized, this obscure blogger is going to keep drawing attention to that fact.
You’d think at least a scientific journal would deem child sterilization a worthy subject to discuss. But no. Even the venerable Nature, one of the most highly respected journals in science, which recently published a much-shared piece about new NIH-funded research on adolescent guinea pigs trans teens, says NOT ONE WORD about sterilized kids.
Very likely no one touches this topic because, well, it’s kind of a taboo. It’s a dirty little secret that trans activists would rather the general public not think too hard about. I mean, most sane people would raise a question or two about the wisdom of sterilizing kids. (In my personal experience, there are two ways to get good liberals to do some critical thinking about trans issues: mention child sterilization or the fact that most gay/lesbian people don’t even fully realize and claim their orientation until their early 20s, long after medical transition commences.) After all, it’s even controversial (and, ahem, worth writing an article about) to talk about sterilizing severely disabled children. It’s even difficult for young adult women in their 20s or older to get their tubes tied.
The aforementioned Nature article is currently being discussed on the public WPATH Facebook page, and to my surprise, and to their credit, a couple of pro-trans clinicians actually put forward the fertility question as a troublesome aspect not covered in the article.
Who can argue with this simple declaration? But as we’ve seen, activists and gender specialists are very eager to push the age for medical treatments lower and lower—be it “top surgery” for trans boys or genital surgery for trans girls. Why bother with the blockers at all, if (contrary to any evidence) little kids know they’re trans from the get-go? And sterilization? Nothing more than a “strawman” according to one trans activist:
Oh, pshaw. Only “cis” heterosexuals concern themselves with silly things like “protecting fertility”–in children. And anyway. LGBT adults tend to have fewer kids, so we’re safe to assume these trans kids probably won’t, either.
Two concerned clinicians seem to recognize who’s really propping up a straw man here:
She says it: “I do not think teenagers can really understand what this loss may mean to them.” Not only that. She points out another little detail that isn’t discussed in the mainstream media: Children who go from blockers to cross sex hormones can never develop mature gametes–that is, it will be impossible for these people to ever produce their own biological children, because their body’s capacity to generate sperm and eggs will have been forever curtailed.
Bravo, clinicians. Even though you are enabling these kids to forfeit their future fertility (despite your admitting there may be problems in “30 or 40 years”), it’s good to see someone standing up for the reproductive rights not only of “trans” kids, but also gay and lesbian parents.
But the activists (whose only claim to authority is their own transgender status) are unswayed in their fervor to promote sterilization of other people’s children.
Although society recognizes that minors don’t have the cognitive wherewithal to vote, drink, sign contracts, or even use tanning beds safely, it’s simply “cisnormative logic” to be concerned that they might not fully understand what it means to be irreversibly sterilized at 14.
And what argument by a trans activist would be complete without reference to the transition or suicide!!! meme (despite no evidence that transition is the cure for self harm in teenagers, and despite the constant misuse of the 41% suicidality figure by activists and a prostrate media)?
Better sterile than dead. The adult trans activists have spoken. Other people’s minor children are “trans people” who will absolutely choose suicide over their future fertility.
Listen to your trans elders, kids, and ignore any doubts voiced by your parents. Statistics show that you’re less likely to want kids anyway when you grow up, and if you do? The Brave New World of medical technology will fix you up.
Not that you teens are the least bit interested in talking about having kids anyway. Childbearing? Who thinks about that? If anything, you’d be more interested in hearing about the latest advances in neovaginas or phalloplasty technology. And while you’re waiting for your genital surgery, discreet panties with a “thick cotton crotch insert to mask the genitals” and teeny bopper packers can tide you over.
I don’t even know what to say. I do know that I need to keep these monsters the hell away from my kid.
When I was 16, having children was a “someday” thought. I was more concerned with teenage life at that time. My 16-year-old daughter talks about having kids “someday.” We joke about what they will be like, and how I will be as a grandparent. But honestly, having children or not isn’t on her radar right now. I don’t expect it to be. When she is ready to be a parent (and if that is what she chooses to do), I hope that she still has fully-functioning parts so she can have a baby.
One of the things that seems to be common knowledge for FtT people is that they should have a hysterectomy after about five years on testosterone. So a female who starts testosterone at 14 should have a hysterectomy at 19. Do most people decide to have children before they are 19? Could I have walked into my doctor’s office at 19 and demanded a hysterectomy because I didn’t want children at that time?
In the UK, I don’t think there is any such thing as an elective hysterectomy, in the absence of disease, unless you identify as trans. Even a tubal ligation is hard to get if you are unmarried/partnered and have no children.
I have no idea how “trans” came to trump every other consideration.
Rachel, I had health issues that resulted in having a hysterectomy in my mid 30s. The issues I had started in my 20s, but I would not have been able to find a gynecologist to do an elective hysterectomy in my 20s before I had children if I wanted one. I think they are too concerned about being sued. I don’t know why that same concern about lawsuits isn’t there for teenagers who want a hysterectomy or double mastectomy. Maybe there is a concern, and only a select few surgeons are willing to do the surgery on such young, healthy patients. It would be interesting to hear from some gynecologists regarding their thoughts on this.
I am 36 and (probably) perimenopausal. My out-of-whack cycle causes me physical distress and exacerbates my MH issues, yet no clinician has ever suggested a hysterectomy, or even the pill/injection or a Mirena coil. My depression is being treated as something entirely different. If I claimed to be trans for long enough, it would be interesting to compare what I was offered, depression or not.
Of course not!
Personally, I did not make the decision to try for a baby until I was 32. Until that point, I wasn’t sure I would ever want children. Even in my 20s I couldn’t come to a conclusion I felt confident about.
I was 30. I was ready a couple of years earlier than that, but my husband wasn’t so we waited. I can definitely say in hindsight that I was not equipped to make a final decision about whether or not to have children when I was 19 or 20. I’m glad that I wasn’t forced into a decision either way at that age.
FWIW I had fibroid removal surgery at age 31. I had never wanted for one second to have children. Still the gynecologist flatly refused to remove my uterus. He explained he was concerned about me coming back and suing him later on. Apparently it was not possible for me to know my own mind at age 31.
This meant that later on, I had to have another MAJOR abdominal surgery for recurrence of fibroids. I was 45 years old by then, and the establishment decided I was finally mature enough to know that I didn’t want children, so I got my hysterectomy.
This all happened in Canada.
I had fibroid surgery at 27 and 29, then a hysterectomy at 36. I wanted children, and was lucky that I was able to have one before my hysterectomy. At 27, my condition was pretty bad. But I don’t think my gyne would have advised me to have a hysterectomy at that time for fear of being sued.
I find it interesting that I was on Lupron before each fibroid surgery, but only for 3 months each time. The gyne said it was not recommended to be on Lupron for more than 6 months in a lifetime. Today it is being used on trans kids as a puberty blocker for years in some cases. I find it hard to believe that there is no concern about long-term effects of Lupron on these kids.
Sahar Sadjadi’s piece is the clearest statement I’ve seen pointing out the ethical issue of sterilization: static.ow.ly/docs/puberty%20blockers_17zy.pdf
She’s an Amherst prof who continues to write/lecture on this subject. I wish she would write a book.
The power of the “transition or suicide” theme just seems unstoppable, as in this very recent news article that also greatly downplays any risks of hormonal treatment;
http://www.app.com/story/life/wellness/2016/03/29/challenges-transgender-transitioning/82159532/
The “pro” quoted there is truly being irresponsible IMO, in terms of not having evidence for what she is saying. She is a “family nurse practitioner” who only works with adults. She blithely says “HRT is not a difficult science” … too bad all the docs who used to hand out estrogen like it was candy didn’t get the memo since it was difficult enough that they gave a lot of menopausal women some pretty serious health problems before they figured out it was, in fact, erm … difficult.
As usual, suicide is the capper argument for transing minors, as noted in this statement from a transman quoted in the same article who is “a professional speaker and counselor” trying to get his message into the schools.
To quote the story: “In a nutshell, this is his message to parents: ‘There’s only two ways it can go for a trans kid. You can get on board and take that journey with them and see your kid flourish and be happy and have a social life and do well in school. Or that kid could become depressed and possibly take their own life.’ ”
Suicide is a terrible, terrible thing, and I’d never downplay that. But the idea that you gotta move fast to transition or your kid will kill him/herself, the ultimate “capper” in every discussion — that just ain’t true. And the idea that other mental health issues are not playing a role, that just seems ludicrous on its face. (Of course advocates would likely apply the ‘no true Scotsman’ maneuver — i.e. if your kid does not try to kill him/herself then they must be merely ‘nonconforming’ and not ‘truly trans.’)
Yeah, 4thwave, you do talk about sterilization a lot. Somebody has to bear witness, so keep it up. Right now I truly can’t imagine my kid wanting to be a mother. But it could happen. I’m sure not ready to determine that at 17 she is already fully formed, already the person she will always be, and permanently incapable of changing her mind about anything. That, to me, is the crux of the conflict here — the “born this way” narrative vs the “plastic brain” narrative. In the absence of scientific proof for “born this way,” and in light of the great weight of proof for “plastic brain” … I don’t see a lot of ethical justification for what is going on right now. I want my kid’s decision to bear a kid — or no — to be my kid’s decision. Not mine.
(On another note, the glibness of the “they can just adopt” comments above from the transadvocate just infuriate me. Speaking as a veteran, that path, though rewarding, is not simple, painless, or a substitute for the ability to bear a bio-child. Nor is being adopted a substitute for a child’s ability to be raised within its genetic family. There is loss on both sides of that scenario, which I don’t think that commenter understands, or cares about, at all.)
bad link for the Sajadi piece, here’s a better one:
static.ow.ly/docs/puberty blockers_17y.pdf
Just because fewer lesbians and gays have children, doesn’t mean we should be sterilized!
Preach.
It’s disgusting, inhumane, and unhealthy. People are outraged when we hear about genital mutilation of girls in third-world countries. Why aren’t we outraged about mutilating the bodies of our girls here? How a female-bodied person identifies shouldn’t matter. We want the government out of our uteruses, so why do the trans activists think they have the right to be in them?
For the record, my daughter has never been suicidal over this issue. She has been confused, lonely, and looking for a place where she fits in this world. She is starting to find that place without hormones and surgeries. The fact that her dad and I didn’t buy in to the trans identity from day 1 has probably saved her life. I can’t imagine the depression and loneliness and fear she would feel now if we let her go down that path.
The Mom,
The evidence is definitely on your side, not buying into & not allowing medical procedures has the highest success rate for kids like this.
I salute you and your husband’s commitment to your child and to reality.
Just because fewer lesbians and gays have children, doesn’t mean we should be sterilized!
No, and arguing from the numbers is a bizarre tactic for a transactivist. But most of those people checked in their capacity for rational thought when they embraced their delusions.
I doubt whether the figure given is accurate anyway. I bet there is a lot of underreporting. There are good reasons why lesbians raising children might be reluctant to go on the record.
Perhaps the answer is that we should simply replace ‘transition’ with the term ‘chemical castration and or sterilisation of the mentally ill’ and see how cool the whole thing sounds. Language really matters in this debate
Truth.
Also, asking if they want their sperm or eggs frozen in case they want kids later might help make it clear what an irrevocable decision opposite sex hormones and/or surgery actually is.
In order to do that, they have to be allowed to go through their natural puberty. Gametes cannot mature and be stored in a person whose puberty was blocked and who is prevented from sexual maturity because of cross sex hormones directly after.
Maybe that’s another reason to encourage such early transition, these sticky questions don’t come up…..
“Completely safe and completely reversible.” This is the lie about blockers, which is bleated out ad nauseam by brainwashed sheeple. No one (but you, 4thwave, thank you!) ever brings up the fact that blockers combined with cross-sex hormones leads to irreversible sterility. “Completely safe and completely reversible. Completely safe and completely reversible. Completely safe and completely reversible.” It makes me furious every time I see this statement in a propaganda piece. The sterilization of these kids is a huge secret, and transactivists and “gender doctors” want to keep it a secret.
Completely safe and completely reversible — my ass! I hope parents considering allowing their kids to take blockers and hormones will find out the truth before it’s too late.
Gee, when I was prescribed testosterone (which I took for a short time to bring my levels from zero to within the low end of the normal range for an adult woman) I was warned that some of the effects are irreversible. The idea that taking enough T to grow a beard, stop menstruating & bulk up muscles is reversible is ridiculous.
And the list of potential side effects of testosterone did not include really really feeling like a man. (I tried explaining this to some relatives in relation to our trans-identifying relative, but they resisted this news, saying I didn’t take amounts that people take to transition and that it’s different for trans people – sadly, as time goes on, the resistance to physical reality is getting stronger in the family.)
The quotes from Toinen Mullin are so sick and disheartening; that these so-called advocates could think so little of children, their health and wellbeing. It’s so arrogant, so ugly.
I think for a lot of women, talk of restricting reproductive rights– whether it be the right to bear children or the right to terminate a pregnancy– sets off big! honking! warning! sirens. We females know this kind of talk, and understand the thinking behind it– the removal of autonomy over our own bodies. Why the sterilization-as-violation of reproductive rights is not used as an additional argument against transitioning kids surprises me.
And when fools like Toinen Mullin so cavalierly bring up surrogacy, as if that wasn’t its own contested can of worms…
A (male) writer I follow on Twitter yesterday tweeted a little faux Margaret Atwood yesterday in response to Trump’s “punishment” declaration.
https://twitter.com/rilaws/status/715270371822473216
A friend and I laughed over it, not because it was particularly insightful, but because most of us females have been predicting this erosion of rights and watching it happen for a long, long time.
Thank you 4thWave. Never stop.
What’s particularly upsetting is the shameless and cynical use of suicide threats as a way to shame parents into sterilizing their own children. Also, so many of these activists want to have it both ways: they want people to accept that “some women have penises.” Yet they want us to believe that little boys need to have theirs surgically mangled or they will kill themselves. Which is it?
I see the trans kid suicide meme *everywhere* now.
It is dogma.
And most disgustingly I have seen medical professionals argue that puberty blockers are safe because they are “natural”, and at 18 the child can enter puberty if that is what they want!
All lies, and if you question it you are a bigot, with a heart full of hate.
And what they never mention is that 100% of kids on blockers go on to cross sex hormones. You can find this data in the studies that have been done. The kids are conditioned to believe they are the opposite sex. For years.
As someone who has a self-trans-identified child who has been suicidal, the trans stuff doesn’t make a person suicidal. Depression makes a person suicidal. Also, no one wants to talk about this, but some kids are also big, fat liars. My kid has put on a show at least twice (and once she actually copped to), so some of this is pure manipulation.
For the real deal stuff, though, it’s the mental illness which is the killer. And, if you’re not treating symptoms of mental illness and instead saying that they’re signs of being transgender? That’s just malpractice. Because when my kid got a more targeted mental diagnosis and meds which treated that instead of meds which exacerbated her depression? Well, she’s much more stable and doing better.
So, if professionals and activists want to really prevent suicide? Do your jobs. Do some digging and look for depression and treat it and if it doesn’t respond, look at it being bipolar. Then treat that.
Also, look for schizophrenia and schizotypal and borderline disorders.
Even if we take as a given, for the sake of argument, that transsexualism is a real, physical phenomenon, people who wish to transition or who have transitioned are still human beings, and human beings can become depressed or bipolar or schizophrenic or borderline. Certainly some non-zero percent of the trans population would have some mental health issues, and yet it seems that the mental health professionals that deal with trans people don’t even consider this possibility.
They can’t even get their stories straight. I have talked to trans activists who say that it’s a disease, and then to others who say that it is not a mental disorder, that it is totes normal, just that, like a bad heart, the GID can lead to ‘health problems’ and the treatment = changing the body.
One of the most irritating things about the entire trans movement is that they bullshit so much that they constantly contradict each other. One day GID is necessary to be trans. The next day it isn’t. Biological sex is a social construct. No, biological sex is real, but only in the brain!
And in every single case they will *not* permit you to disagree or exercise any degree of critical thought. You must ‘listen and believe’. Ok, so a trans activist yelled at me, telling me to STFU, to believe the lie that: ”biological sex is a social construct.” So, I go to a pro-trans blog and repeat the line ‘bio sex is a social construct’ and I get accused of ‘mocking’ and ‘straw-manning’ trans people because who would say something so silly?
So we are supposed to believe every argument they make, otherwise we are bigots.
If we believe the wrong argument and repeat it, we are also bigots.
This has been my experience over and over and over with the trans community. And they go nuclear every time. There is never ‘hey there, you misunderstand’. No, it’s DIE IN A FIRE YOU HATEFUL BIGOTED ARSEHOLE1111111
I have never in my life met a more hateful group of people.
Jessica,
It’s almost like they enjoy throwing a bunch of incompatible stories at us and then pitching fits when everybody doesn’t immediately go along.
It’s like the whole stupid “pronoun” nonsense – first off, how often does someone use a pronoun to someone’s face? You call a person you’re talking to “you” or their name. Pronouns are normally used to refer to people who aren’t the person you are talking to. Second, they get their panties in a twist when people “use the wrong pronoun” but with all the made up words they use as “pronouns” how is anyone supposed to know which one any particular one of these people would use?
And instead of a little patience when “educating” people, every mistake or question is responded to with the fore a full blown assault.
Yeah, hateful is a good word for it.
Trish, I heard somewhere the schizophrenia correlates with transgenderism. I haven’t been able to find much on the supposed relationship but it is certainly food for thought!
Oh, well. Now sterilizing children is a “study.” Awesome.
http://www.bustle.com/articles/151052-the-largest-ever-study-of-transgender-teens-is-about-to-begin-heres-why-thats-important
…with no control group. Because that would be “unethical,” to deny blockers + hormones to any kid who claims to be the opposite sex.
Making teenagers wait is the same as murder, dontcha know?
Right. But look, we need the study, we need SOME info about the physical outcomes. Unfortunately I think five years is way too short a period to be looking at the physical results. If they are starting blockers with these kids at Tanner Stage 2, they’re obviously going to have to be pushing for hormones at younger ages — because after five years in, some of those kids are still only going to be mid-teens. Like, my kid was already at Tanner 2 when she was EIGHT, so she’d have been facing a hormone recommendation at something like age 13.
I think this is part of the reason for the push for the switch to hormones at younger ages; some of these endocrinologists recognize that you cannot just administer blockers for years and years and not expect unfortunate side effects. It’s not just for psych reasons; there is a physical price to the long-term delay. They don’t even understand what that might be. Kids put on blockers for central precocious puberty are not left on those drugs for a bunch of years. (In most cases they’d be taking kids off Lupron or some such after a couple years, like at age 10 or 11, and letting puberty proceed. This idea that you’d keep kids blocked for a lot of years beyond that is a whole new ballgame.)
It’s absolutely uncharted territory.
The research lan is inadequate and it doesn’t get at a lot of the issues we are discussing, but at least it is a STUDY of some sort. What I want to see is a larger study and a longer study, at least a decade, preferably more. They’ve got to start looking at this stuff if they’re trying to preserve any shred of clinical and ethical responsibility.
As for the lack of controls? Yeah. They’re not going there.
puzzled, right, because with a control group? Then they’d have to actually address that waiting is NOT murder, and they’d have to cope with a cohort of insistent kids who COULD, conceivably, desist. That’s just too risky.
But we all know that 100% is completely unrealistic. They know it, too.
I just came across a link to a news article in my FB feed the other day (an acquaintance arguing against it in comments – thanks FB for showing me what people are up to) about the recent statement by the American College of Pediatrics equating child transition with child abuse: http://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children
I was just blown over to see a medical organization come out and make such a bold statement – including effects of blockers and hormones on fertility, among many other points we’ve discussed here. Of course the uneducated public’s opinion runs against it – “Just let people do what they want to do! If it makes them happy why does it bother you??” but hopefully it is the beginnings of some further critical analysis, and at least the points are being brought up to the public.
In these days of “Trans Day of Visibility” I’ve seen so many things that have sickened me (including posts reblogged by tumblr staff) that little statement was like a ray of sunshine.
I was just about to post this link! I am so glad the ACP has issued such a forceful reality-based statement on this!
The ACP has been dismissed by SJW trans activists and sympathisers because it is a Christian organization.
And yes, Christian orgs get dismissed because they are the same people who argue against abortion.
I am no SJW, and certainly no friend to transactivists. But the ACP (and most of the Christian churches, for that matter) are not only anti-abortion, they are extremely hostile to gays and lesbians and very conservative in their view of marriage and the family.
I’m an atheist, but I have to mention that not all Christian churches are anti abortion or anti gay. I have gay Christian friends – one was married to an Episcopal priest & was the first gay spouse to received spousal benefits from the church when his husband died.
Here’s a list of some Christian churches that don’t condemn abortion:
American Baptist Churches of the USA
Episcopal
Evangelical Lutherans (ok with abortion prior to fetal viability)
Presbyterian Church USA
Unitarian Universalist
United Church of Christ
Unite Methodist Church
Metropolitan Community Church
Assembly of God
Here’s a list of some churches that welcome gays
Episcopal
Baptist
Lutheran
Presbyterian
United Church of Christ
Mennonite
The above are partial lists.
I am an atheist too. Here is a typical reaction in atheist/skeptical circles.
I usually dismiss anything that is produced by pro-life Christian groups, as the science is usually suspect. However, in this case, this group is correct about the fact that puberty blockers etc are not healthy:
http://archive.is/uBDNr
But, the message doesn’t matter, as many so-called ‘skeptics’ within the atheist community will automatically dismiss it because of who the messenger is.
Response to Trish: I don’t want to derail this debate by going on about a side issue. But that is a rather American-centric list of churches. In the UK the Anglican church is definitely not gay-friendly (though some ministers and congregations may be). The Baptist Union is reported to be in a state of internal conflict over gay marriage. The Presbyterians are also split: the Church of Scotland takes a liberal line, the Presbyterian Church of Ireland a strongly traditionalist one.
Sorry to keep blowing the whistle on problematic ‘allies’. But the American College of Pediatricians should not be confused with the main professional body (American Academy of Pediatrics). The ACP split from AAP some years ago. True, they oppose ‘gender ideology’ and even cite Sheila Jeffreys in their notes. But their ‘position statements’ also include, in no particular order: 1) ‘Homosexual Parenting: Is It Time For Change?’, opposing same-sex parenting 2) ‘Empowering Parents of Gender Discordant and Same-Sex Attracted Children’, supporting ‘conversion therapy’ for lesbian and gay people (and taking another swipe at L&G parents); 3) ‘Psychotherapy for Unwanted Homosexual Attraction Among Youth’; 4) ‘On the Promotion of Homosexuality in the Schools’, etc; they also oppose abortion and support spanking children. (See http://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements and links.)
I posted a comment about them a few months ago: http://4thwavenow.com/2015/11/08/6-year-old-trans-girl-reality-show-star-is-mentored-by-15-year-old-trans-teen-patient-of-dr-johanna-olson-of-la-childrens-hospital/#comment-7697
While I acknowledge that I share certain positions with these people – one cannot disagree with statements like ‘Puberty is not a disease’ – I’ll be frank: they scare me. I have lived a large part of my life in a time when lesbian parents were at risk of losing custody of their children, when lesbian and gay employees had no protection against being sacked (this in the UK, where employment protections are relatively strong), and when the psychiatric and psychotherapeutic professions took it as axiomatic that same-sex attraction was a disorder requiring treatment with drugs and other forms of therapy.
I think we should be very wary of promoting the ACP and similar groups.
“They also oppose abortion and support the spanking of children”. Well I suppose parents need something to do with the children they never wanted. (I am at a loss as to which emoji would be appropriate for this combination of funny and disturbing.)
4th Wave Now – your sites (and insight) are so valuable. While your focus is on young (alleged) FTM’s I am wondering about the consequences of blockers and cross sex hormones on MTF’s ?
I have read accounts from adult males who had been on estrogen and blockers that experienced significant penile atrophy. This was a serious issue for the construction of a satisfactory neo-vagina(there wasn’t enough surface area from the penis). I haven’t seen mention anywhere of the consequences of this for young boys being raised as trans girls ?
I am also wondering if the blockers/hormones will create skeletal issues/future osteoporosis for both sexes ?
I am VERY concerned about this tsunami of young trans-identified people. The very concept that any human can change sex is madness.
The issue of sterilizing kids is truly alarming – I bet nobody is offering these kids an option such as saving sperm or eggs, because that would be too much reality! Plus it’s probably expensive, and all that money could be spent on surgeries on genitals, faces, chests…..
The person in my family who is identifying as trans claims to want kids. I watched behavior over our holiday visit, and this person spent all her time happily hanging out with the toddler & infant and zero time doing anything stereotypically male – if I hadn’t been told about her trans-identity, I would not have guessed that she identified as anything but female.
The “transition or suicide” meme ignores the reality of the high rate of suicides among post-transition individuals, as demonstrated by the multi-decade study in Sweden that followed every single person in that country that transitioned. Transition may make a person appear to be the opposite sex (and often not so well) but it doesn’t treat other mental health issues such as depression. Even the idea that someone who desires to be the opposite sex might have other problems seems to be something that is not even considered – as if a person is walking around perfectly happy, with no problems except strongly believing that their body contains an opposite-sex portion that should override their apparently normal chromosomes, sex organs, hormones, secondary sex characteristics is so common among this population that it’s not even worth asking if anything else is going on.
As far as saving sperm and eggs, children who go from puberty blockers directly to cross sex hormones do not and will never have mature eggs or sperm. So there is nothing to save. And yes, nearly every day there is a story about a trans man who is or wants to get pregnant. Interesting that these gender specialists are so cavalier about destroying kids’ fertility when there are plenty of adult trans people who very much want to have their own biological children. The gender specialists tell themselves they’ve done their due diligence, as the clinician in the screenshot above says, because they’ve asked a 14-year-old whether they ever want to have kids. It’s a travesty. If these people really cared about these kids, they would be helping them realize it’s OK to wait until adulthood to transition. I frankly don’t know how they sleep at night.
Thanks for clarifying – I guess I’m finding it hard to wrap my mind around the idea that this kind of irreversible thing would be done at a point where one can’t even engage in such a back up plan (the trans identifying person in my family is a bit older & possibly could save eggs).
Even if the candidate for transition is too young to have viable germ cells, posing the question might bring reality into the picture, but if they’re pretending to these kids that puberty blocking can be reversed, that’s probably not gonna happen.
I find it incredibly disturbing that so much reality is being swept under the rug and anyone who mentions any bit of reality that doesn’t align with the trans agenda is painted as a bigot.
trish — I’m sure the parents are having this discussion with the providers; i’m sure it has to be in the consents they sign. It’s the public that’s unaware, not the people who are involved.
It’s just that — if you think it’s truly a case of ‘transition or die,’ you are going to sign that paper on behalf of your kid anyway. You’re going to see the sterilization as a lesser evil; you’re going to see the hypothetical offspring as ephemeral shadows vs your distressed, in-the-flesh child. Once you buy the do-this-or-die prediction, coupled with the brain-sex theory (ie gender identity is biological), you’re going to sign, regardless of the many unknown and potentially significant tradeoffs. If you’re given zero other treatment options, you’re going to acquiesce.
It’s only skeptics — people who don’t automatically accept “expert” opinion, especially the diagnosis-du-jour opinion of psych providers (sorry, skepticaltherapist and others here) — who are going to have the inclination to dig a lot deeper. (And I have to say a lot of it likely hinges on the kid’s distress level — how much distress, for how long?)
puzzled,
In our family, the trans identifying person is over 18, so the parents have no legal right to participate or even know what goes on in consultation with the doctor.
I’m noticing that the trans relative is steering everyone to pro-trans “info” and groups, and they are becoming less skeptical, and my skepticism is being met with greater resistance (Like when I tried to explain my experience with prescribed testosterone, and that it didn’t make me feel like a man, nor was feeling like a man one of the possible side effects listed in the packaging – they took the position that I didn’t take enough t and/or it’s different for trans people…)
I don’t know your family member, Trish, but a thought on hanging out with infants and toddlers: That’s not always primarily due to the desire for children or to feel nurturing. Some people with high anxiety or social problems associate with children because they’re less threatening than adults.
I’m not saying this because I think it’s a bad thing, necessarily, and it certainly isn’t the same as predatory behavior- but it’s a potential sign of some other issue that’s not being addressed in favor of the trans narrative. Far too many people with anxiety or depression are being ignored or fed this belief that transition is the answer to their problems. Just something to consider.
This family member has express a desire to have kids later.
I saw a British documentary where a transman-to-be was given the opportunity of storing eggs. His reason for not doing it was along the lines that doing it would show he wasn’t committed or was questioning his identity (men don’t have eggs to store).
Identity politics: making people stupid since 1967.
One of the weirdest parts about this (though there are oh so many) is that according to National Center for Transgender Equality, their OWN dang organization:
“Those who have medically transitioned (45%) and surgically transitioned (43%) have higher rates of attempted suicide than those who have not (34% and 39% respectively)”
http://www.transcentralpa.org/_content/downloads/Preventing_Transgender_Suicide.pdf
So… uh? What are they looking to do for these kids? Make them infertile AND dead?
So you argue “Better dead than sterile”?. Fine, a common opinion, the list of people that want ALL trans people dead is a very long one.
Sometimes there is not a prefect choice so you apply triage to fix the worst and most life threatening problems first. I don’t see people jumping up and down about how terrible it is for a child to be treated for cancer at the risk of becoming sterile, because they know that saving their life is more important, even at a price.
There are, sadly not yet perfect, ways to reduce the problem and these should be available to all LGBTI people, as well as the many other infertile cis and intersex people.
But, as a parent of a gender non conforming child (of any type) you should expect that there will be a lower chance of them having children, however they turn out (gay, lesbian or trans).
Making them feel guilty (or second class) about that will not help them becoming happy and accepting of themselves one little bit. Are you going to endlessly (as some parents do sadly) make them feel unhappy about not having kids if they grow up to be (say) a gay male?
And. let me remind everyone (especially those deep in denial), the self harm and suicide rates of gay and lesbian kids is nearly as bad as they are for trans ones and for the same reasons, not being accepted, being bullied and being treated as not human, … with family rejection beng the number #1 reason..
Australian Bureau of Statsitics ” Reflecting a Nation: Stories from the 2011 Census, 2012–2013 “, http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/2071.0main+features852012-2013
“Just over one in ten same-sex couples had children (of any age including adults) living with them in their family (12%). It was much more common for female than male same-sex couples to have children living in the family (22% compared with 3%). Children in same-sex couples may come from a previous opposite-sex relationship of one of the partners or may have been conceived (often with assisted reproductive technology), adopted or fostered in a same-sex relationship.”
Oh and Toinen is my Finnish female middle name chosen by my mother, courtesy calls for my first name being used in discourse.
Lisa, the point is, “transition or die” is a false dichotomy. These kids can live **and** retain their fertility–simply by waiting to transition until they’re older (which has the double advantage of allowing some of those kids to realize, in time, that they needn’t become permanent medical patients to be happy with themselves and their healthy bodies). Anyone who has read this blog, as well as the comments by its many intelligent readers, will find no hateful calls for trans people to die, and I think you know that, don’t you?
The rush to transition children is what this blog critiques, not the right of adults to do what they wish with their own bodies. Medical transition of children not only robs them of their fertility and commits them to permanent body changes. It also preempts their chance to discover their sexuality in their natural bodies (which comes even later for LGB people–did you read this post? Lesbians, in particular, often don’t come to terms with their sexuality until their early 20s).
These days we hear about so many adult trans men who want to have their own biological children. Your citing of birth statistics is a red herring. It matters not one iota how many people of any demographic choose to have bio kids in the future. Would you argue that, just because statistics show that the majority of career women over a certain age don’t have kids, that those women might as well be sterilized as girls?
It is a fundamental human right to decide, as an adult, whether or not to have kids in the future. Why would you want to deny trans kids that opportunity, in the name of what–“passing” better than you and other adult trans do? Don’t you think the adult trans people who have their own biological children treasure their fertility?
There are so many fundamental contradictions in trans activism. Aren’t you fighting, like so many trans activists are, for society to stop associating appearance and even genitals with natal sex? Surely you are aware that the standard activist line is “some girls have penises”? While I don’t agree with that statement, when it comes to OUR children, it would be a far lesser evil for you and others who are pushing for our kids to be medically trans’ed, to instead help “trans” kids to love their bodies as they are, even if that means allowing them to believe that “some girls have penises” and “some boys have vulvas.” Activists seem to want to have it both–all–ways.
As to suicide and self harm, and whether transition is the solution to that, if you are intellectually honest, you will admit there is scant evidence of that. First, as you point out, LGB and GNC kids, not just self-identified trans kids, are at higher risk of self harm. This post about the 41% suicidality rate absolutely acknowledges that. Being gender nonconforming is tough, full stop. Instead of telling teens that a future of painful surgeries and injections is going to “fix” their pain (kids always want instant solutions, as any parent knows), we should help them cope and give them a fighting chance to be healthy without the intervention of surgeons and endocrinologists. As you were challenged on 4thWaveNow a while ago, if you care as much as we parents do about our kids’ mental health, why don’t you and other adult trans fight HARD for societal acceptance of gender nonconformity, instead of arguing for our kids to be medically transitioned?
The scaremongering employed by you and others on the issue of suicide needs to stop. You need to stop terrifying and demonizing parents. The rash of teen suicides in San Diego and elsewhere last year included several kids who were fully supported in their transitions by friends, family, and others.
Even Arlene, the clinician on the WPATH Facebook thread this post is about, disagreed with you yesterday (on the same thread) that the issue comes down to “transition or suicide”:
Lisa, to sum up, I believe you argue your points in good faith—you really think you are helping these kids. While I stringently disagree with you, I will grant you that. My hope is that you and activists like you can eventually come to realize that it will be much better for all concerned if our kids are allowed to grow up, be supported as gender nonconforming young people, and loved for who they are-without medical transition. If they decide to transition as adults, so be it. But they need a fighting chance to avoid extreme intervention until then. Medical transition—if it is going to take place–was not so long ago strictly an adult decision to make. We at 4thWaveNow strongly believe that’s how it should be once again.
Lisa,
I’m sure you are doing what you think is right to try and help kids who are struggling with their identities. Many of us who follow this blog are trying to help OUR OWN kids who are struggling with their identities. The problem I see here is that medical transition was once a last resort for adults who could weigh the pros and cons of the decision. They took the time to really think things through. Adults who had some life experiences and could grasp the health implications of their treatments and picture their lives at 40, 50, 60 years old. Today, it seems that there is a rush to medical transition for ALL. The treatment for these patients seems to be one size fits all. There is little recognition that each case is different, and little encouragement for children and teens to find a way to live happily in their healthy bodies.
It’s like instead of telling kids it’s ok if they don’t fit into the stereotypical “girl box” or “boy box,” something is wrong with them and they must fit in the other box. They can’t identify with people in both boxes. They can’t feel more comfortable hanging out in the girl box one day and the boy box the next. We’re just making the boxes smaller and more unwelcoming. We should be telling children that their healthy bodies are perfect as they are. Why would anyone tell a young child that their body is wrong?
Many teenagers struggle to find their place in this world, and to find a group of people who accept them as they are. I think there is a huge increase in the number of trans-identifying teens because some of them don’t fit neatly into the box for their gender, so it makes sense to them that they belong in the other box. They are desperate to find a solution for their pain. They understandably want the quick fix. As a parent, I want to take away my child’s pain. As the parent to MY child, who I know better than anyone else does, I KNOW that the best plan for her is to help her find her happiness without medical treatments.
Sadly, here’s ANOTHER trans-identified kid with ample support and love who still committed suicide. It’s time to stop the lie that accepting this unconditionally has anything to do with whether these kids are suicidal. They are suicidal IN SPITE of being given acceptance. I honestly think professionals better start taking a long, hard look at the comorbidities of mental illness in this population and figure out if treating THAT would be more successful and then think about exploring WHY these kids feel the way they do.
http://villagegreennj.com/towns/suicide-popular-chs-grad-sam-price-sparks-transgender-youth-foundation/
I don’t want any other parents to lose their child.
I feel like we’re not even speaking the same language, Lisa. You’re coming at this as a transwoman. I don’t know if you’re a parent, but I think it’s pretty safe to assume that your life experiences are pretty different than ours. We’re coming at this (mostly) as mothers of natal females whose ideas about gender nonconformity and transness aren’t informed by the same life experiences as yours. It’s not all the same thing — our female-bodied children are not the current or previous you — and it’d be great if we could develop some nuance here, rather than “you guys don’t believe trans is a thing” and “you want all trans people dead” and “if your kid were LGB you’d still be phobic.” All that stuff is incorrect. I’m sorry, but it is.
I’m not speaking as future grandma here, seriously. Unless my kid develops way more wisdom, self control, and perspective than is currently on display, I actually think parenthood would be a bad thing for her. That doesn’t mean it’s my right to take the option away, regardless of my current opinion of her potential as a parent. I don’t think her fertility is a negligible commodity. For you to acribe these protests as coming from a selfish “give me a grandchild” place shows an extreme lack of understanding of the importance of fertility to many, many natal women. Including transmen, for pete’s sake.
As for your other assertion, that those of us who comment here would not accept an LGB kid any more than a putatively trans one — I don’t know where these assumptions are coming from on your part. I only know that your grasp of our motivations is tenuous. I don’t care what my kid’s sexual orientation is, or turns out to be.
I DO care, however, if she chooses to embark on a path that is risk-laden in terms of both physical and mental health. Again, I think you come at this as a transwoman with (I presume) your own experiences of transition. I gotta tell you, however, as a parent of a natal female, I am scared shitless of the “guinea pig” nature of natal females who opt to get onto T and stay on it. There is a dearth of research on long-term health aspects of this course of action — but a ton of anecdotal evidence that it’s not a healthy thing to do. The list of likely serious side effects is as long as your arm, not to mention the need to have a complete hysterectomy pretty early in the process to try to guard against reproductive system cancers. And the evidence that transition makes people less likely to self-harm, in the long run, isn’t there, either.
If there were an actual diagnostic tool beyond “insistent/persistent/consistent” this decision would be simpler — but there’s not. In fact, there are tons of personal narratives of natal women who were PLENTY insistent/persistent/consistent and then, after a while, figured out that they were not actually trans. They ticked all the psych boxes, and a lot of them actually transitioned, and yet — not trans. And now people just pretend they don’t exist, and dismiss them as “never really trans,” and all the med/psych/pharm ppl who were once eager to assist them have nothing to offer them. Those professionals get off scot-free while their erstwhile patients try to figure out the rest of their lives.
Given the risks, you can be damned sure that I’m not in any hurry to go down this road with my kid. She’s doing well in the world at the moment, and she can make that choice when she’s a grownup. Grownups get to do what they want to with their bodies. Even things their parents think are unhealthy. Twas ever thus.
I don’t know why I’m bothering with all the verbiage, though. You’ve clearly decided there is a single appropriate course of action and that a parent who doesn’t embrace it is phobic, abusive, and risking their kid’s life. (And incidentally probably wants all trans people dead. Geez louise.) I don’t think anybody’s going to convince the other side, here.
And you won’t believe it. But I wish you well.
This is in reply to the article Katiesan shared. This breaks my heart. This was clearly a young person who was cherished by her family and friends and who they described as a loving, giving person. She had tons of support in her transition. She obviously had some other things going on that transitioning could not solve. It is interesting that the photo included shows her not presenting as a female.
We as a society need to stop treating all of our gender nonconforming kids with the same treatment. Transition is not right for everyone. Transition will not CURE other mental health issues. We desperately need mental health professionals who will work with a child on all of their issues. If this was happening, I believe that many of the teen girls who are popping up suddenly as trans boys would not transition.
Lisa, I want to respond specifically to this comment of yours:
“But, as a parent of a gender non conforming child (of any type) you should expect that there will be a lower chance of them having children, however they turn out (gay, lesbian or trans).
Making them feel guilty (or second class) about that will not help them becoming happy and accepting of themselves one little bit. Are you going to endlessly (as some parents do sadly) make them feel unhappy about not having kids if they grow up to be (say) a gay male?”
It appears you are missing the point. I can’t speak for everyone here, but in general we are a group that is NOT going to judge our kids if as adults they choose not to become parents. We simply want our kids to be able to make that decision for themselves as adults. The blocker-hormone combination takes that choice away from kids when they are too young to understand the weight of their decisions.
I agree with you. Whether or not my daughter chooses to have children at some point is totally up to her. My concern is with taking away her right to make that decision.
I think each child/teen should be looked at as an individual, with the goal of having the least-invasive treatment possible. Adults can make their own (hopefully educated) health decisions.
I believe that teens should not be expected to make major life decisions that have permanent health consequences that cannot be undone if they regret the decision. A double mastectomy cannot be undone. A hysterectomy cannot be undone. Some of the effects of testosterone on a female body cannot be undone. I want my daughter to focus on her school work and career aspirations, her hobbies, her plans with friends, whatever guy she has a crush on that week, etc.
Lisa,
I really don’t grasp why you are so offended by what is written on 4thWaveNow’s blog. These are our children. We know them best.
Obviously, my daughter wasn’t a true “trans kid” since she desisted. I get this. But what is dangerous is that there are activist clinicians (like the original therapist my daughter saw) that too readily diagnose children like mine as the real deal. And they DO start medical interventions on some youth that will not benefit.
This is what 4thWaveNow is trying to expose. Her blog is not setting out to erase your existence. Or to trigger children into committing suicide.
Valid points are being discussed here. Shame on you for trying to bully us into silence!
Where is the list of people who want all trans people to die?. I have seen too many people equating disagreement with being ‘exterminatory’ to take such a claim at face value.
You say: “I don’t see people jumping up and down about how terrible it is for a child to be treated for cancer at the risk of becoming sterile, because they know that saving their life is more important, even at a price.” I’m afraid you are displaying your ignorance here. Fertility in young cancer patients is something that is of great concern to researchers, patients, physicians and ethicists, as a simple PubMed search will show: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=fertility+cancer+children.
Lisa,
“So you argue “Better dead than sterile”?. ”
I haven’t seen anyone argue that here. Quite the opposite, in fact. What I’ve read are thoughtful responses by very concerned mothers of (mostly) teenagers with gender dysphoria. They care about their children deeply, which is why they’re concerned about this issue in the first place. They want their children to be happy and healthy, and they are concerned, with good reason, that trans gendering will help with neither their health or happiness. You started your comment by making statements that blatantly misrepresent both the OP and the community on 4thwavenow.
The treatment for the growing self-identified transgender population is in some ways so shocking to me, because it is so very different from the concerns for my own physical and emotional health I received from doctors and psychiatrists when I was a teenager. I suffered from mental health issues, including anorexia. I’ve always been clear that I don’t want children. However, that had no bearing on what the doctors wanted for me, which was to have a regular period. This was for future fertility, sure, but that wasn’t the only reason. Healthy levels of estrogen in the female body are necessary to avoid dangerous bone loss. Hormones also help regulate mood. The body functions like an ecosystem; all the parts relate to another part or function in some way. There’s going to be consequences to just interfering with someone’s normal, healthy bodily functions in some way.
What I have seen you do in this post is repeat common pro-transition talking points, not responding to points that are actually made by the very thoughtful posters here.
Well put, 4thwave. There isn’t a lot of research on the long-term effects of transition, but what there is does not support the assertion that it is a fix for suicidality. Indeed, it may in fact makes things worse. I, too, am hoping that we can find other ways to support gender nonconforming youth, including altering society to be more accepting of those who don’t fit into tiny gender boxes.
Hi I was just wondering if anyone knows a good psychologist for a 15 yo, someone who doesn’t rush into the transition path but can help
Look at why my daughter feels the way she does? There seems to be nothing when you search google.
I am so confused about what I should do. There is so much pressure to conform to transition but nothing to support families to really uncover why their child has gender dysphoria/ confusion. Thanks Annabelle
Hi Annabelle. Go to http://www.youthtranscriticalprofessionals.com and email me from the contact page. I will respond to you privately.
bad link, it’s actually
http://www.youthtranscriticalprofessionals.org
good luck to you, Annabelle.
Just came across this video. A trans woman of 13 years talks about how puberty blockers and SRS effectively *castrate* children
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1cXf2RU4p0
Good to see another trans woman who is gender critical.
What is this “freeze some eggs” nonsense even supposed to be good for? Did they forget that a woman will have to carry that pregnancy to term?
This is male supremacy. They openly state that they consider it completely acceptable to coerce a woman into endangering her life and leath by becoming pregnant with a child that is not her own and doesn’t even have half of her genes. (Or do they intend to develop the fertilisation of eggs with cells from other eggs to a stage where it can be used on human beings anytime soon?)
Also, since when are lesbians less fertile than heterosexual women? Artificial insemination is not exactly rocket science.
Very male-centric, again. Yes, gay men are not likely to have their own biological children. There’s a reason for that. But of course, this reason is biological, and the transwacktivists like to ignore biology.
I proposed it as a way to perhaps shock a young relative considering transition (my trans relative expresses desire for kids later) with questions about irreversible decisions.
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