4thWaveNow was founded in 2015 by Denise, the mother of a teenage girl who suddenly announced she was a trans man after a few weeks of total immersion in YouTube transition vlogs and other trans-oriented social media. Denise’s daughter Chiara has since desisted from identifying as transgender and in 2019 cofounded an organization for desisted/detransitioned women, the Pique Resilience Project.
4thWaveNow founder Denise and friends.
In early 2015, after much research and fruitless searching for an alternative online viewpoint, Denise began writing about her deepening skepticism of the ever-accelerating medical and media fascination with the phenomenon of “transgender children.”
4thWaveNow has now expanded to feature not only Denise’s writing, but that of other parents, formerly trans-identified people, and others with professional expertise and experience with young people questioning their gender identity.
Readers, please introduce yourselves and feel welcome here.
From the founder:
I created this site because mine is a viewpoint that is seldom publicly heard: that of a left-leaning parent who is critical of the dominant paradigm regarding transgender politics and treatment. My primary concern is children, teens, and people in their early 20s, particularly girls who are contemplating medical transition. While I may disagree with their views, I do understand that consenting adults have the right to do what they choose with their own bodies and minds.
Online, I have been accused of being “unsupportive,” even abusive, simply for daring to question whether lifelong medical treatment–injections and plastic surgeries–is the answer for every young person who has gender dysphoria. In my world, caring about, listening to, and lovingly parenting a child or young adult is not necessarily a synonym for unexamined “support” for everything the child says or wants. In fact, one of the main jobs in parenting a teen is, not coercion, but the offering of alternatives; discussing, and sometimes disagreeing.
It is my contention that the medical and psychological establishments are letting us all down in their rush to diagnose young people as “transgender,” then to give the message that medical treatment is the answer. Much of my writing now and in the future will focus on the adults who are encouraging so many young people to pursue extreme treatments. And I do consider hormones and surgery extreme treatment, if there is any possibility that something less drastic might be a solution.
At4thWaveNow, we are interested in hearing from parents, family members, concerned professionals, and allies from across the political spectrum. However, we are not in accord with conservative, religious-fundamentalist views about sexuality. We are strong supporters of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people.
Please read blog posts and articles carefully before asking questions or commenting, and check our our FAQs for answers to commonly asked questions.
Re: Fighting for the girl that deserves to thrive: Yes, it is all relative, isn’t it? Everyone out there seems to rubber stamp it all, everything as A-OK. I wonder how the average person defines transgenderism? No, we are not talking about being trapped in the wrong body–but the oblivious out there (it hasn’t hit them) think that is what we are talking about. My daughter went through the same phase as yours is describing, fear of men, hatred? She considers herself a “survivor” and I don’t know what happened to her and if it was real or all in the mind and dogma. Keep fighting (without pushing the rebellion button). Best wishes for a good outcome!
Thank you so much for your support. It’s so hard to open the conversations when every word I utter is viewed as an attack. Such a hard lesson on patience, delicacy and urgency.
http://gendercriticaldad.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/ignore-redirect-and-reward-dealing-with.html
This approach has helped us enormously. Just calms things down, helps everyone live and breathe.
That is excellent advice! I wish I had known what I was dealing with before she was gone, but I was clueless and I think I did over-react.
Some of you might already know about this, so apologies it if is old news. I have been following SJW_Nonsense on twitter, and she is talking about the safe schools initiative in Australia.
She recently posted some info which might be useful:
https://twitter.com/sjw_nonsense/status/862558365423083520
A great comment by a person here who tells the story of how she and her daughter survived trans-trenderism:
https://twitter.com/SolarisRex/status/862097104923049984
The safe schools website points students to BDSM sex websites etc:
https://twitter.com/sjw_nonsense/status/861920198567251970
Safe Schools: Anti-Bullying or Political Agenda:
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/acl/pages/5231/attachments/original/1478044371/Safe_Schoos_Brief_-_2_November_2016.pdf?1478044371
There is far too much for me to cut and paste here, but anyone who is interested in this subject, i highly recommend you follow @sjw_nonsense and @clairlemon (Claire Lehmann) on Twitter as both women report on this subject daily. If you want the full picture, I suggest, especially in regards to Safe Schools, that you read the last 5 days of SJW Nonsense’s feed. A lot of good info there and comments from other concerned parties, such as Gender Critical Dad.
Thank you posting. Yes, it is crazy. I have seen similar stuff in my corner of the U.S.
I am so very grateful to you, 4thWaveNow. You cannot know how much this site has helped us. I am so very appreciative of all the commenters. This support means so much – it’s impossible to express our thanks enough. All the resources that are here and the sources they’ve lead me to online, have been instrumental to our sanity and our strategy for saving our girl.
We have kept our conversations with her very positive for the first few months that this came to light. We simply presented her with some facts and articles (which she read) and asked her to keep an open mind and told her we love and accept her and support her no matter what. We told her how she is a smart, brave, and strong female with a beautiful healthy mind and body. Afterward, we gave her a one-page summary of all the things we talked about – reinforcing several main points often discussed in the trans-skeptical arena. These bullet points included things we love about her too. We took her on a couple outings and did things she loves to do and just spent time with her. We thought things were going well and didn’t have any confrontations until the other day. When clothes shopping for ‘dress clothes’ – I’m sure you can imagine the scenario. I said that I was not buying boy’s clothes for her – it was a very difficult experience.
Then it all came out. Through sobs, she walked me through it – anxiety about not having friends at the start of this school year, starting a new (middle) school, starving herself for 2 months, thinking she might be gay and having suicidal thoughts – she went online to try and figure out why she was so unhappy – especially when she has a nice life – so as she searched for answers online, she saw transgender vlogs and thought “maybe it’s because I’m transgender.” Months went by without talking to anyone about it and slowly this transgender solution was the answer for her and then she told us she was trans and wanted us to take her to a doctor to consider surgery.
We read everything, kept an open mind, attacked our own gut feelings and considered her actually being trans. We were previously very trans supportive socially, but knew something wasn’t right when this happened – it just didn’t add-up with our daughter. Now, I know enough to critique or question phrases like “transitioning to male” or at least I must qualify it to say that someone transitions ‘as much as modern medicine and surgery will allow,’ because part of our reasoning to her was that transitioning is only a solution for a very small number of people as a method of last resort. It is simple biology that the person never truly, medically becomes the opposite sex. A person they can live as though they are in many ways and be as close biologically to their desired gender as possible – but never fully as if they were born as that gender. I also told her that I respect and appreciate ADULTS who transition and truly hope they are happy, but that I am sad that they had to go through it. I am sad for children and teens who are surrounded by professionals who aren’t looking for other explanations and patient with finding solutions – especially when so many have a good chance to be happy adults if they don’t transition.
After just a few weeks of us presenting her with some facts and questions, and during and emotional “confession” about her suicidal thoughts after the clothes incident, she said “now I’m not sure I am transgender.” But it still has a huge hold on her and I worry that she feels like we are squashing her ray of hope for this solution and now she has to deal with figuring out why she hates herself so much. We have to help her see another solution – one of acceptance and patience and living life to the fullest.
I have so much more to say – I suggest instead of berating them for watching transgender vlog after vlog and going online instead of talking to us, to congratulate them for trying to independently solve their own problems. At the same time, we instituted boundaries and rules – we took away her access to youtube, but provided tons and tons of her favorite alternative music and added instagram. Everything is a balance and you have to look for the positive.
My point in sharing this story is to say that when presented with some facts, reasoning and logic, doing the work of loving her and giving her tons of family support and commitment to positivity and to helping her be a healthy person, and even having so much fun with her during the process, we are actually getting her to question her self-diagnosis. It can happen. We are far, far from a resolution. It has been pure hell. Everything in our lives has suffered. I am fighting my own occasional depression slide downhill because of this. Our next step is to show her the BBC documentary “Transgender Kids: Who Knows Best” and continue our questions and listening to her without instant responses as much as possible – we are going to encourage all the wonderful things about her not related to gender and talk about her hate for herself and go on this difficult journey with her. We may eventually find a therapist we trust. We will be ever-vigilant for signs of suicide. Now she says that she is much happier than before when she was going online at the beginning of the school year (she now has more friends too), but it is still there – everyday – an underlying depression that we absolutely must address. I believe that we will get through this without further requests for “transitioning to male” and that she will come through it all as a confident, happy, woman – possibly gay – which we have said all along to her – is fine with us.
I leave with this question: How can this be? – that she can pull through this struggle and learn to love and accept herself – when I know without the faintest doubt that if we had taken her to a so-called gender therapist, we’d have a plan for a double mastectomy and a prescription for “T.” Something in this world and the psychiatric profession has to change. Something has to change and it’s not my daughter.
The BBC documentary is a good call. The research I did after watching it led me here. If you search for ‘gender affirmative therapy’ 4th Wave Now is the fourth result from the top.
I’m also kind of in awe that you pulled off giving a one-page summary, with bullet points, to a teenager.
Thank you for this story. My 17 yr old daughter is determined to be transgender. I say determined because I also believe that she has been heavily influenced by society’s eagerness to promote trans as a solution to dealing with feelings and emotions that young teens typically have to deal with(hormones, sex, Self critical, Self esteem) mental illness and self image issues. I am scared out of my wits that my daughter will do something drastic before I can find the right help for her. I welcome any direction/information anyone can share.
You are doing a great job. Yes, how did it come to this? That we destroy young bodies (and perhaps minds) for a trend, a passing obsession, a mental illness?
Well said Ourguts – wishing you, your family and your daugher all the best
4thWaveNow, I’m trying to read everything on this site but I keep losing track of where I’ve got to. Can you create a one-page article list that just has the titles of all the articles and links to them? It would make navigation a lot easier. Thanks.
Will add to to do list.
That would be wonderful. 4thwavenow is my go to site for medical and scientific data regarding the transing of kids, and I often find myself lost, trying to remember which article had a specific link.
Anyhoo, phenomenonal work you folks do here. I am always linking this site to people who are curious about trans trender ism. Such a great resource. The anecdotes in the about section are amazing as well – people need to understand that social media is brainwashing kids into believing they are something they are not.
Underneath “fighting for sanity” and “throwing lifelines to desperate parents” 🙂
Thank you to everyone who keeps these conversations going and helps create a supportive place to learn and share. We need each other desperately, especially when we see our children are sad and just want to fix it any way we can.
RgutsRloudandclear, just wanted to echo what you said about how much our child’s sadness affects us and can pull us into the depths of depression where it becomes even more difficult to think clearly. I think we all want to be a steady, consistent, supportive voice of reason, advocating for slow and careful thinking on this issue. It I is easy to lose hope that you are doing what is right for the long term even when you try to be gentle and supportive in your approach to providing guidance. Especially in the current culture.
I don’t know what to do and I could really use everyone’s advice. Last summer my daughter told me she is Pansexual. I was initially very upset, however, I am now ok with it. She has slowly started changing her looks in the past 6 months, like cutting her hair short and dying it different colors. For her birthday, she wanted to go see a youtuber, Miles Chronicles. I bought the tickets without knowing who he was. I went to the show with her and she was called on stage and she announced to the whole audience and me that she wanted to be referred to as he/him and that her friends call her Kevin. My heart dropped. I didn’t know what to think. However, I did tell her that I loved her and would support her. I can handle her being Pansexual, I cannot handle her wanting to change her identity. I found out 2 of her friends feel the same way. She is constantly on YouTube for hours in her room. She has NEVER displayed any kind of behavior in a masculine way at all, ever. Only 2 years ago, she had boy band posters all over her room. My gut feeling says she is being influenced by these Youtubers. I want to have a talk with her and tell her what I think, but I am going to wait until she is done with her finals. I don’t know what to do or what to say to her. What do I do about her constantly on her phone with all of these videos she watches? HELP!!
Jill– I am so sorry. Your daughter is in a very dark Disneyland and she thinks it is real but it is not. I write from a darker place, as I have lost my daughter. All of these stories with parents fighting for their children and being in conversation, well, I tried. I knew that she had gotten in to a very dark place via her phone and computer. She was obsessed. I did everything to shut it down but ultimately failed. I had no idea to what extent she was doing all of the stuff you mention above. I knew she was chatting with strangers, seeking something, and that there was pornography involved–weird stuff. Please see the site, Transgender Reality– the Aims and Purpose of this Website. If you could remove your daughter from her current environment, and her phone and computer (take a long trip?) perhaps not realistic for most of us… I think ourgutsRloudandclear (see above) is doing a great job of keeping in communication with her daughter and showing lots of love. We did not have that opportunity (as she didn’t share) and now she is over 18 and off in another world and that world is dark indeed.
Hang in there. Wishing you all the best outcome…
Dear greatergoodtruth,
I can’t express how sorry and sad I feel when I hear that you lost your daughter. The fear, horror and sheer frustration in this situation are all but overwhelming. Whatever happens in terms of gender, I so hope s/he comes back to you. Coming back even from this dark Disnleyland cult place must be possible.
I have a friend whose daughter went into a (different kind of) dark place under the influence of others and ostracised her family for years. In the end, though she came back to herself and to them. I hope this happens for you.
I am lucky in that although I am losing my daughter’s gender I am not losing her as my ‘child’. I am terrified for her as she is such a vulnerable, delicate young person who is female through and through, and I can hardly bear to see her try to pass as male. I feel hugely guilty that I didn’t see this coming and wasn’t able to step in and prevent it before she was an adult, that I had no idea what she was doing online in the privacy of her bedroom. I thought she was reading and drawing as she had done since she was little. How stupid was I? I knew she was unhappy and found school and friendships a huge strain. I tried to get professional help for her struggles many times but it was never effective.
But we didn’t create this cult. We didn’t see it coming.
What you are doing to help others is so commendable and so so important, it’s a lifeline to people who are struggling and sometimes sinking.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
How awful for you and your daughter and what a dreadful way to find out she has been taken over by this ‘cult’. I can only advise as to what feels right to me going through it with my daughter for over a year now. I would say let her know you understand that this is real to her whilst being clear as to what you believe. Try to encourage her to read a variety of views including those on here. Or just slipping into conversations things you have read including those from detansitioned young people. She may not listen but over time I do think some of it gets through. We never took away our daughters phone but do try to limit time spent on it. We compromised by using her preferred name (which is gender neutral) but not using male pronouns. We try not to make an issue of other things eg clothing and haircuts and have found her to be a bit more relaxed there. We have also found seeing a therapist helpful in that it facilitated conversations at home more easily buy have made it clear to the therapist that we do not believe she is transgender. I would add that we are in the UK so are seeing nhs therapists, not sure where you live and what the therapists are like there.
Only time will tell if what we are doing is right as is the case for all of us. I would add that over the past year she has become less oppositional as we understand eachothers point of view better. Hopefully this will be the case with your daughter. I think you do right to let her finish her exams first and tkae it slow.
Wishing you all the very best
That’s really good advice from Jessie. If you can, slow things down, encourage flexible thinking, concentrate on things outside of gender, giver her time to mature emotionally. This is real to them, and so you may find arguing against her only makes her more determined, or pushes her into a corner, or worse into the arms of a cult. She may be as scared as you are underneath all the celebration for “coming out”, so make sure she knows how much you love her, come what may. Get some counselling for yourself too if you can – we have been dealing with this for nearly a year, and it can become all-consuming. I think there are many complex psychological and societal reasons in a toxic mix (many explored on this site – thanks 4thwave!) which is leading to so many girls are declaring they are boys – your daughter is the victim here, not the cause. All the best to you.
I am forever grateful to this site!! My story is IDENTICAL to the blogger’s!! My daughter has ASD, PANDAS, OCD, PTSD and has had a lot of trauma in her life of 13 years.
How do I get in touch with you???
I am an amateur filmmaker and want to do a documentary covering all the important facts, concerns and issues on this rapidly growing epidemic and specifically want to work directly with those here; especially the therapists and doctors supporting us.
There is a definite link between kids with Autism Spectrum and gender confusion!
I’m willing to travel the globe to complete this project.
You can contact me at:
alohiwarrior@gmail.com
Many Thanks & God Bless,
Amy and Amelie in Oregon
Dear Friends,
I wrote a while ago about my girlfriend’s son, Silas who was socially transitioned to Lara in kindergarten this year. The saga continues, yet I see a wonderful little person everyday who is unfairly caught up in the madness of this trend. I read everything, listen to your posts, try and keep up with the research. My girlfriend’s couples therapist recommended that the 2 ex-partners read a book called, “The Gender Creative Child”, by Diane Erensaft in San Francisco, Forgive me if this book has already been brought up. Thoughts on it for those who may have read it? Lastly, I live in the States and would love to watch the recently mentioned BBC documentary. I am finding it difficult to locate. Anyone?
Thanks, as always for an amazing site.
Annie
That book is toxic. There is a link to an archived version of the BBC documentary on another site. Anyone have a link?
I am in the states and I used the US link as directed: BBC documentary, Transgender Kids: Who Knows Best? aired in January 2017 (archived version available to US viewers here: https://archive.org/details/BBC-trans-kids). Best wishes.
This video and lots of info from this blog and other sites helped our daughter come to the realization that transitioning isn’t right for her. There’s still a part of her that questions if she’s transgender, but given that we’ve only been talking to her about this for about 2 months, we’ve come a long way! She decided she was trans about 9 months ago and all the ‘positive-trans-is-wonderful’ ideology in youtube vlogs and the general prevalence in today’s culture brain-washed her during all that time. It will take some time for her to see her own truth – that she is not trans – never was particularly masculine in any way and always comfortable in her own skin until she suddenly ascribed transgender as the cause of her feelings of anxiety and depression.
Again, best wishes.
Thank you for the link, Ourguts. I was able to watch the film right away. I appreciate that the film is not mono-visioned, like so much else out there today. Thanks also for sharing your experience with your daughter.
Thanks to 4th Wave, too for sharing your opinion about the book, “The Gender Creative Child.” Now that I have watched the film and see that Spack wrote the forward to the book, I am heavily jaded. But I will finish it, since to fight for the truth, we must be informed. As I started to get into the book, I was starting to feel a bit creepy.
Onward, and my heartfelt best to you all. I keep telling my girlfriend that she is not alone. You make that more true than ever.
Yours,
~Annie
Welcome!
I am feeling so positive after this weekend and our latest discussion with our daughter (age 13). I wrote a bulleted summary of the most likely scenario that brought her to this point of questioning her gender. She read it in our presence, cried a little and said it was pretty much exactly how she felt. She said she thought she might be trans because she never fit in with the girls who just gossiped all the time. She was comparing her looks to the other girls and because she wasn’t a skinny, tan, blonde, she felt that she couldn’t compete. (She’s quite beautiful actually) This is such craziness getting to the root of her true feelings. She says that she doesn’t feel trans anymore. We have said all along that we don’t want her to say what she thinks we want to hear – and we will love her always whether she thinks she trans or not. I believe her. She’s starting to see that she can be a strong, brave girl. This is exactly why this trans-positive culture is so toxic to teens! Teens are so vulnerable when it comes to their bodies. Combine that with wanting to try on different identities as most teens do throughout adolescence. Add a pinch of rebellion against the mainstream and routing for “the underdog” [meaning standing up for ‘the oppressed”]. Then combine all those very normal, very strong, typical teen feelings with one of the common categories for trans vulnerability – autism, underlying mental condition or disorder such as anxiety and depression, gay or lesbian feelings, or a traumatic event and these kids find their salvation in the trans wave. Only it’s not the real answer – not for the vast majority.
I am so glad that you are in honest communication with your daughter. I didn’t have the opportunity– she hid this all from us. She was dark and remote and addicted to her phone. She latched on to the trans identity in college and we had absolutely no input or influence. As with your daughter, our daughter was pretty, not masculine, young for her age, and totally overshadowed by the popular, gossipy, blonde, boy-crazy girls. She was very sensitive and this contributed to her identity meltdown. She was also diagnosed with a serious mental health condition. I actually believe what she was doing online sent her over the mental health cliff and that mental illness did not come first.
I wish everyone well and a good outcome for their child.
Your daughters story breaks my heart. I’m so sorry to hear you say that you lost her.
I feel fortunate that this happened while my kid was still at home and not at college – or even just further along in her teen years when they pull away even more. I’m thinking that some mental illnesses are a process that take time. I can completely see the scenario where a mild, initial stage of a disorder begins and then it worsens into a full-blown disorder while undergoing a complete transformation. My daughter nodded furiously when I referred to transitioning as identity suicide. She had wanted to destroy herself and become a new person with a fresh start. That is what is so appealing about this. They don’t tell you that you have another choice.
Best to you and yours.
Hi to ourguts-
My daughter is 14 and sounds very much like your daughter. I love your idea about the bulleted list and articles you gave her – can you please share what you gave her with me so that we could borrow ideas on how to talk with her?
Much Thanks and best wishes for a great outcome!!
Hello outputs
I too would appreciate if you could share your bulleted list as I am in a similar situation with my child and all the gender clinics just reinforce their beliefs without exploring other options. help!
In answer to requests regarding our approach with our child, here is a broad outline. It is very specific to our daughter, our family, our current situation and our history. This is not meant as a general guide for anyone. I am just trying to help anyone that finds it helpful.
We kept a positive tone. We asked her to write a short phrase on how she is feeling every day. We noted that her bad days of more anxiety were her days she felt more like a boy. It has taken months of smaller of conversations with two larger conversations. We gave her some reading material that offered a different viewpoint than the hundreds of ‘trans-is-super-awesome’ vlogs she’d been digesting for several months. We interspersed lots of time and attention doing fun things as a family unrelated to gender identity. Things were going well until one day when she broke down because I wouldn’t buy her boy’s clothes. She told me she hated herself and was having suicidal thoughts when this started several months ago which is when she started to wonder if she was a boy. She says (and we’ve observed) that she is much happier now after making more friends this year. She watched the BBC documentary “Transgender Kids: Who Knows Best?” (link: https://archive.org/details/BBC-trans-kids). We (temporarily) removed internet access but provided instagram and tons of itunes music. Here are a few things we printed for her to read and gave her a folder to keep it in for privacy:
1. https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children
2. Trisha Tulloch and Miriam Kaufman. “Adolescent Sexuality,” Pediatrics in Review, January 2013, VOLUME 34 / ISSUE 1. (Only the subsection “Adolescent Development and Sexual Behavior” link: http://pedsinreview.aappublications.org/content/34/1/29)
3. Potentilla. ” April 22 2017 “A sinister mental trap”: One man’s journey back to himself,” (Only the middle portion of the subsection “The Curse of Trans” at link: //4thwavenow.com/2017/04/22/a-sinister-mental-trap-one-mans-journey-back-to-himself/)
4. Jennifer Johnson. “Your Budding Daughter: Some Practical Suggestions for Parents,” link: http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/health/Your_Budding_Daughter__Some_Practical_Suggestions_for_Parents.html#ixzz4fkgFx8Hb) Subsections on (1) Breast development and (2) Sex Education
5. Selected information from PowerPoint slides by Michelle Cretella, MD, President American College of Pediatricians, Association of American Physicians & Surgeons National Meeting, September 24, 2016, ” Gender Dysphoria in Children:Science, Medical Ethics & Controversy” (slide content we used: Transgender and suicide: 90 percent of all suicide victims (regardless of identity) have a diagnosed mental disorder. No evidence gender dysphoric (GD) children who commit suicide are any different. Therefore, prevention = better treatment of psychological co-morbidities. 75%-95% of GD children resolve by adulthood when neither affirmed nor medicated. Majority of subjects were misdiagnosed as GID/GD; they were in reality only gender non-conforming (GNC))
6. Two minutes of a detransitioned girl’s video within: David French. “The Tragic Transgender Contagion” National Review, August 18, 2016. (link: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/439126/)
7. John Pavlovitz “If You Stick Around (A Letter To Suicidal Teens)” May 2, 2013. (link: http://johnpavlovitz.com/2013/05/02/if-you-stick-around-a-letter-to-suicidal-teens/)
8. Selected excerpts from Gender Critical Greens: “Gender is not identity” August 15, 2016 (link: https://gendercriticalgreens.wordpress.com/2016/08/15/a-feminist-view-of-gender-identity-politics/)
Summary 1
• children’s brains are constantly growing and developing neural connections and networks
o why they have such a capacity to learn
o why they have such a capacity to be creative
• adolescent’s emotional and reward centers of the brain are more developed than their cortical structures (which develop slower)
o adolescents are highly susceptible to making decisions based on experiences that elicit emotion and not reasoning out all the consequences
• brain not fully developed until approx age 25
• exposing yourself to new things (good or bad) that elicit an emotional response get hard-wired and rewire your thinking
Memory
• memory is constantly rewritten every time we remember it
• lots of data from studies show your memory can be easily influenced and altered
The repeated transgender-positive messages you’ve seen with no balance of viewpoints has lead to a gradual process of “brain-washing” that transgender is actually a wonderful experience
Transgender myths
• That your uncomfortable feelings about your body are due to some mistake that you were meant to be someone else.
• That doing hormonal replacement and/or surgery will actually make you a boy.
• That doing hormonal replacement and/or surgery will make you a feel better about your body.
• That doing hormonal replacement and/or surgery will only make you different on the outside. (It will affect your brain and your body on the inside too.)
Transgender truths
• If you change your body, You, [NAME HERE], will be gone forever. It’s identity suicide.
• It’s today’s youth’s way of dealing with overwhelming painful feelings.
• Your anxiety will still be there. In fact, it could be worse. (again, this is specific to her)
• Some people who change their bodies regret it and reverse it and their underlying issues are not resolved by any of those actions – only prolonged.
• You will never truly be a boy as if you were born a boy.
• You need to love who you are – mind, body and spirit.
• It is wrong to say gender doesn’t matter and girls can do anything that boys can do and then get surgery to become a boy so you can do boy things.
• Society is slowly embracing new images for girls – but it takes time – even generations.
Summary 2
• Approximately 75%-90% of children who have gender issues are satisfied with the biological sex they were born with by the time they reach adulthood
• Less than 0.3% of the population is transgender (FYI: 3% is gay or lesbian)
• The adolescent brain is not fully developed until adulthood (age 25) and is very neuroplastic (changes to brain resulting from changes in environment and thinking)
• Most adolescents hate their bodies and ALL are worried that they aren’t attractive
• Hormone chemicals and/or surgery will NOT make you a boy – you will be a neutered girl that has to shave (you can’t change your chromosomes)
• Approximately 90 percent of all suicide victims have a diagnosed mental disorder and there is no evidence GD/transgender children who commit suicide are any different – there is an underlying mental disorder for suicide
• Many children have been misdiagnosed as GD/transgender; they were in reality only gender non-conforming (GNC) to traditional stereotypes
• Impersonating the opposite sex may alter the structure and function of the child’s brain in some way because of neuroplasticity (changes to brain resulting from changes in environment).
• Children will face lifetime of toxic cross-sex hormones if medical treatment is chosen
• Any time you don’t feel like you fit-in or belong, that emotional pain causes you physical suffering and you want a doctor to cure it. The only cure is to heal the mind with love and acceptance of yourself. (this is one example from her particular history that we left in)
• People are mentally ill only if distressed by their thoughts that affect their lives in a negative way. This emotional distress is the illness, not thinking or behaving differently than the norm. Happiness and acceptance is the cure.
• You are a beautiful, smart, brave and strong female
• We love you no matter what. We want you to love yourself.
Lastly, I wrote 3 pages entitled “Let’s Consider this Scenario” that listed our opinion of how she came to this conclusion that she was transgender. It is very specific to our situation and our history – it is too personal to publish the full detail here. It was meant to be emotional. It went through her struggles for 2 pages and built into an emotional crescendo of a description of her pain and then it offered a better choice of love and acceptance and a message of hope. Here are some excerpts:
• You tried to figure out why you didn’t have a lot of friends.
• You made comments that if you weren’t skinny, tan and blonde, then you weren’t pretty.
• You compared your looks with others.
• You compared your personality with others.
• You didn’t like your comparisons.
• You didn’t measure up to the level of perfection that you had in mind.
• You were depressed and considering self-harming and having suicidal thoughts.
• You started starving yourself.
• You had looked online for help and answers about being so depressed.
• You wanted to know why and what to do about it.
• You found youtubers that came out as transgender.
• You found confidence in seeing how “brave” these people were.
• You felt like you didn’t belong in the regular crowd (mainstream)
• You wanted to be liked – at least by some people.
• You want to be admired – at least by some people.
• You felt rejected from the regular crowd/mainstream.
• You felt you didn’t belong anywhere.
• You thought maybe you belong with these non-mainstream people because you are somehow different.
• You decided you felt better thinking of yourself as strong and brave like a boy.
• You admired and wanted to be like the brave transgenders
• You figured that you hated your chest and that there was this option – of transitioning – that you could actually become this strong, brave boy.
• You feel more confident with this cloak of masculinity.
• You feel stronger thinking of yourself as a tough boy.
• You hated being a girl – it implies weakness and you didn’t want to be weak anymore.
• You wanted to squash everything about yourself – all that you know of yourself – all that was you – all that you hated.
• You hated your chest, you hated your [personal attributes of hatred here].
• You hated not feeling comfortable with other kids your own age.
• You were much more mature than them though. (our daughter knows she is very intelligent)
• You must have figured it out and now have a solution.
• You were trans and considering a double mastectomy and a life-long commitment to chemical modifications/medications
• You still hated your feelings – you hated your body, you hated your mind.
• HATE, HATE, HATE.
• KILL, DESTROY – either death or a totally different person than what you were.
• Those were your choices….
• You didn’t see the trap this was.
• It snapped around you.
You have a different choice.
You have a choice to accept the parts you don’t like about yourself for now.
You have the choice to see that the future brings all the promise it always had.
You have the choice to build on your strengths.
Everyone just wants to be liked and loved and respected and happy. Just like you.
Everyone feels “different” and “not good enough.” Just like you.
You deserve to see that you don’t need to change your identity to get what you want out of life.
You owe it to yourself to try to find yourself without rejecting parts of yourself or of rejecting others.
You owe it to yourself to allow yourself to really see that you are beautiful, you are strong, you are brave, you are smart and you will find your way in this world without rejecting it or yourself.
You owe yourself love, acceptance and patience – lots and lots of patience.
You owe yourself this chance – and many more chances
You can be happy
You can see that being brave is not changing who you are.
Being brave is coming as you are.
Being brave is opening yourself up to rejection – over and over again after going through the pain of it.
Being brave is failing.
Being brave is persisting.
Being brave is being you.
You are brave. You are strong. You are beautiful inside and out. You are smart. You are loved.
(best wishes to all)
Wow– what an amazing response you have given your daughter! I think this will help many people in the same circumstance.
Thank you so much for sharing that. I find it extremely helpful in determining things to say to my daughter and I know that the process will take months. You sharing has given me hope besides just ideas.
I’m so happy to hear that we helped some people – it really warms my heart.
Here are links to references 5 and 6 (above links don’t appear to work).
5. https://www.acpeds.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Gender-Dysphoria-in-Children-Science-and-Medical-Ethics2.pdf
6. http://www.nationalreview.com/article/439126/transgender-teens-parents-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria-doctors
Wow. Just found this. Completely amazing. I’m hopeful it will be helpful with my daughter. Thank you so much.
What a lovely resource – thank you for sharing. 4th Wave should this be made into a separate blog post? As RGuts says very clearly, everyone is different and everyone’s reasons for feeling they are “in the wrong body” are different. There will be some children who will ultimately transition (rightly or wrongly), or simply need to work it out on their own, so some of us may have to stand back, love our children with all our strength and somehow live with the uncertainty it brings. Our daughter (a young adult) will not engage in discussion, so for the time being we are being patient and helping her improve her mental health, finding out if she has a diagnosis of ASD, and hoping that time and maturity will at least give her the tools she needs to find a good way of leading her life.
Oh Wow – RGuts…
Thank you Thank you Thank you!!! You don’t realize how helpful this information is for so many who are going through similar issues… I am so very grateful. I may not use all of your info, but much of it will be very very useful. I can even share this with my therapist, maybe even my daughter’s too.
I won’t run out and use it right away, I will be careful I promise you!
I have done some of my own research – and have seen parts of this, but I love how you’ve prepared it. Way to go – you’re awesome!
Thank you so much!!
Can we get the text of the Misery For Profit presentation LeftForum cancelled?
Yes, please! I second this request!
This is a letter I composed to my daughter. I’d like to give it to her to begin and change our dialogue of the past few months. I’m hoping she will agree to sit down with me and watch the BBC special that was posted here. I’d also like to watch Peachy Yoghurt YouTube vids with her. Let me know your thoughts or suggestions. Thank you in advance. <3
Dear Emily,
I love you. Please always know that every single day.
You are a young woman. You are not a male born to a female body. Please understand that women and men can be a whole spectrum of things. You do not need to be put into a pink box or blue box. Some women like to do mostly so-called masculine things. Some men like to do so-called feminine things. This does not make them the opposite gender.
You can be the type of woman you want to be. We already know you are creative and intelligent. You have a fun sense of humor. You may have similar issues as me with depression. I think we can safely say you have issues with anxiety. Did you know that young people that suffer from depression and anxiety are more likely to identify as trans? I’ve also learned that young people on the autism spectrum are more likely to identify as trans as well as those that struggle with OCDs.
Then there is gender dysmorphia. This likely touches all teens at some time, however, the people I listed in the paragraph above are more likely to struggle with it on a deeper level.
Most, young people that identify as trans (around 80%) change their minds. Once they work through the “stuff” they either realize they are gay/lesbian, OR, they come to understand that being a certain gender doesn’t limit you to the pink box or the blue box.
I’ve been learning a lot about this online, and I would love to sit down with you and watch some things together. I think they would be helpful.
With Love,
Mom
Dear unreal950,
What a great idea! I should have thought of writing to my daughter. So much can be conveyed eloquently by the pen rather than the mouth. Alternatively, once written, it cannot be unwritten or forgotten.
I would not state “You are a young woman. You are not a male born to a female body.”, especially not at the beginning and maybe not anywhere in your letter. I don’t mean to sound negative but that is exactly how your daughter will take it – negative. It’s combative to these kids to oppose them. In their minds, we are either 100% with everything they want (their idea of supportive) or we are 100% against them. There is no middle ground for a kid suffering from the trans disease.
Certainly, to heal, the realization that she is actually a woman will need to occur. I can tell you from our experience, telling our daughter this was very difficult for her. It sent her into a tizzy-fit every time. Trying to reason with someone who’s been convinced they are someone or something they are not is almost impossible until their anxiety and depression is under control.
I don’t know where your daughter is mentally. If you feel she is strong enough, you have to decide what is best.
We are currently working through things by trying to address her anxiety and giving her the information you want to give your daughter. We’re doing it in passive form. When my daughter accomplishes something she didn’t think she could do, I typically say something like “You managed and succeeded on your own as who you are right now, not as someone you want to be”.
We recently switched therapist. I researched this guy and talked to him multiple times to make sure he wouldn’t succumb to the trans cult. In our first group meeting, he asked my child what she wanted to accomplish. Her reply: “I WANT to take T and transition but I know my parents don’t want that and I live in their home… under their rules”. I almost fainted. One year ago, she would have been totally opposite – a combative, unreasonable child under the influence of the trans indoctrination. She still under the influence but I feel we are making progress.
We take one baby step at the time. Sometimes those baby steps result in her trying to convince me I’m not supportive and sometimes they result in tantrums – moments I think I’m going to call 911 and we’re going to the ER again (as we did when she had suicidal thoughts).
I didn’t intend to write a long post. I do want to give you something to think about concerning how your daughter might respond. If she responds negatively, the rest of your letter will likely fall on deaf ears. That could impact the progress you’ve made. However, progress isn’t likely unless you infiltrate the trans indoctrination. It’s a double-edged sword, as is healing from any mental illness. How you accomplish this is your decision. None of us know your child. We can only share our experiences and hope they benefit you.
Good Luck!
Dear Mvrobin, thank you for your advice. I think you are correct. I’m going to go back the drawing board on the beginning sentences. Thanks for the luck. We need it here.
I also changed it to the term “gender dysphoria. My brain is overloaded with all these new terms. I miss the uncomplicated times………..
I find that we think it through more than they do (obviously?) and for them a lot of it is wanting to put a label on things. At my daughter’s school they had two FtM individuals come in to talk about gender for some workshops – one went by her female name, the other by a unisex name but they both expressed as female… not following? I wasn’t either. They were women who “identified”as men but “expressed”?(dressed and acted) as women.
It is like the world has gone mad.
I find that the not arguing about it MAY be working a bit for us. I preface a lot of things with “I am not saying that you aren’t transgender, but I feel that this goes back quite a ways and that maybe the transgender issue isn’t the only thing going on. I understand you are uncomfortable but I want to make sure that we are taking the best care we can of you because I don’t want to see you feel unhappy like this.”
In our case my daughter has quite severe separation anxiety that predates any of this by years and years so I have that as a bit of “evidence” that this isn’t all just that she is a boy stuck in a girl’s body. She also said something about it being “Girl name” – I am gently trying to find out what she feels is wrong with “girl name” to understand why she would want to be someone totally different. It crossed my mind that some of these girls may really want to change who they are completely and this is being presented as the way to do it without being “crazy” or having multiple personalities.
It is so hard to know what sticks and what doesn’t, where and when this crazy ride will end. I am thankful for all of you posting, gives me hope and support I can’t find elsewhere.
That seems like a good tactic. I hope it works for you and her. It is a sham that support is sip hard to find. How the heck did the transgender lobby get so big and powerful? And why is this conveniently lumped in with LGB? It’s practically considered against the law to try to have an open discussion about this as far as doctors are considered. What a huge disservice to or youth.
OMG I was beginning to believe that I was the only parent out there who was thinking that this self diagnosis that my 20 yr old daughter made just doesn’t fit the person that I know and love. I’m just starting to read the stories and advice and honestly this website may have saved my life.
Encouraging report of a U.K. conference about the need for more research and caution when treating gender confused children:
https://www.transgendertrend.com/hot-topics-in-child-health-a-medical-political-and-ethical-debate/
Good to know that this disaster is finally being noticed by professionals in the field.
hey I started http://genderskeptics.freeforums.net/ to try and make a forum for parents to talk about these issues w a more convenient format. I’m totally open to suggestions about how best to run the place.
Hi, my friend recommended this site. My former spouse came out as transgender soon before our marriage broke up (we would have broken up anyway, he was a total narcissist and I was starting to get sick of it), and we have a 4-year-old daughter. Recently, our daughter started saying she’s a boy and using male pronouns for herself. Naturally, my ex jumped at this and thinks it’s “so interesting.” When we talk about it, the idiot just grins like it’s the greatest thing, doesn’t seem to understand my concerns here. If she is transgender, I will of course support her in the end, but that’s not the life I would automatically choose for her. And I’m concerned that my ex, a terrible attention seeker, will try to coopt this for yet more attention. “Look at us, the transgender family!” This is a kid who today started using female pronouns again, and told me that she’s a spider now. So I think my ex is getting really psyched for nothing. So I’m really happy to find this site and get to talk to reasonable people who are looking for some middle ground here. I worry about my ex telling her things and getting her all confused. I want her to figure these things out for herself over time, and not because someone is feeding her information. And she’s freakin 4! Her whole concept of gender revolves around who gets the cooler toys!
Hi JennyRose. Just saw this, so sorry no one has responded to you. What an upsetting situation. Your ex needs to listen to your kid and not make a snap judgement based on this noisy sociopolitical trend. Let your kid be a KID. These people who “trans” young kids based on transient ideas — eh, they ought to also encourage them in the notion that they are truly princesses with kingdoms and political power, or truly superheros with super powers.
Anyway. Just wanted to say – heard you.
Thank you 4thwaveNow for the new sections on research and resources! I think these resources will help many families who find themselves in this quagmire.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301205/ Hi…. do you think this sort of thing would make for an interesting article based on what we know about the trans cult’s manipulative tendencies, how narcissist men treat women and prey on vulnerable people?
have a look at this Safe Schools Program in Australia https://www.facebook.com/youreteachingourchildrenwhat/videos/482857788738980/?multi_permalinks=10155005325754541¬if_t=group_activity¬if_id=1501225860990511
Sounds bad.
Although I for one am cautious of any campaign which is also anti-gay. This Australian campaign also seems to be pro “traditional values” and possibly anti-gay. Being gay is an orientation which does not require to be treated with artificial hormones and surgery (we left that behind in the 1950’s).
Hello, I don’t where to turn. My biological sister has decided she will become a man. The Testosterone is making her BEHAVIOR unrecognizable. She seems dissociated from reality, wildly emotional, impulsive, angry…..I don’t know what to do. It’s frightening and sad. My Mom and Dad are willing to support top surgery but want her off of the T. She is over 18 and we cannot stop her.
Why were they willing to support surgery? I hope your sister comes back to being herself.
Testosterone seems to be causing the mental health effects – and the effects seem to get worse when she increases her dose. As for top surgery, they do not like the idea, but that worries them less than the HRT. The side effects of the T are just so palpable.
What a terribly sad situation. They don’t need to pay for/support anything. She’s 18. She’s an adult that can make her own money and pay all her own bills. Parents don’t have to provide housing or food or clothes to any obnoxious adult. Adult children need to re learn that respect is needed if they ever expect anything.
Yeah, so my daughter is trying to bully her way to being a boy too. She’s barking to the wrong mother here. I’ll help her find another way to fight her demons but not this.
Good luck sweetheart. Good for you for looking out for your family and knowing something is not right about this.
I understand how horrible and frightening this is for you and I’m so sorry that you, your sister and your family are all going through such a difficult time. It’s especially hard when your sister is an adult and no-one can stop her from undergoing ‘treatment’. It sounds as though whoever is prescribing the testosterone needs to be keeping a closer eye on the side effects, which sound horrendous – maybe the dose is actually too high.
Is there any support available for you and your family? There always seems to be so much in place for the transgender person but nothing for the struggling family and friends (apart from here!). I have a daughter who is experiencing her sister transitioning and so far as I know has no one to talk to about it. She will not talk to me. It must be so hard for her.
My other daughter is now 20. I have struggled and struggled to get my head around her gender dysphoria because she is so feminine in every way but she is adamant that there is no alternative to transition, that she has tried everything to feel happy in her skin but can’t reconcile herself to her gender. She has tried for eight years to suppress her dysphoria, but I have only known about it for a year.
She has been taking testosterone for a few months now and has saved up to have top surgery at Christmas. She is short tempered and permanently hungry but nothing like you’re describing. I and my family are also sick with worry that she’s making a mistake, but no amount of talking gets us anywhere. I’m now really hoping that she is actually right and that we just don’t understand, that perhaps she genuinely can’t live as a woman anymore and that transition will help her. At the same time I am sick to my stomach with worry.
I guess this is not the forum to hear of happy outcomes after transition and I am risking alienating myself here but because I can’t stop what’s happening, I can now only hope for the best and be as supportive as I can while not actually encouraging the transition. I love my daughter and although my heart is breaking for her, I am her mother and will stand by her no matter what.
Maybe none of this helps you. I can feel your fear and concern and I truly hope things work out for the best for your family, yourself and your sister. I hope you find someone you can confide in too.
Thanks for your response. Your situation sounds very similar to ours. No amount of talking gets us anywhere, My sister is convinced she has a medical disorder that needs treatment or she will kill herself. It is hard to wrap my head around because she expressed no signs of gender dysphoria as a young child. She is gay and very immersed in San Francisco culture. I do have to question the role that has played in the development of her social identity. We are a family of liberals, but I remain skeptical of the medical necessity of this. I also feel as if she has learned to think of herself as a medical patient, whereas a few decades ago she might have just been “butch” and been okay with that.
That does sound so similar, scaredsister. My daughter also feels this is a medical condition that requires treatment and also says that the only alternative is suicide. She has had relationships with a man and a woman and says she doesn’t know what her sexual orientation is or whether she is sexual at all. This uncertainty really makes me question her certainty that she must transition. I know we must let adults make their own minds up and make their own mistakes, but in the current era with the current trends and encouragement from others to go ahead and transition, the potential for a disastrous mistake is so great.
I hope so much for a positive outcome for you, your sister and everyone who uses this forum, including the lost daughters. Maybe collective hope can have some effect…
CMM and scaredsister, they all have this narrative: “it’s congenital, it’s just a birth defect, I have to do this or I will die.” This is the narrative they get from social media. The fact that both science and experience give the lie to this contention is not countenanced.
A simple fix for complex problems is a powerful lure. (Only, I think for a lot of folks, the simple fix does not turn out so simple, either.)
I understand your need to look for a post-transition “happy outcome,” CMM. I think that’s a healthy adaptive behavior in your situation. I don’t think anyone here would fault you for that, seriously. You can’t stop it, you can’t control it, you have to hope for the best for your beloved child, physically and mentally. What else can you do?
As for “sick with worry” — yeah, after several years of this, to the detriment of my own health, I hear you. I have not had a happy or peaceful or relaxed day since this “thing” reared its head in my household. Not one. It is always there in the background: “What is my kid going to do, what am I supposed to do, why the hell does this have to happen to us, why does everyone out there think this is a happy and affirming outcome and we’re all supposed to be happy about it?”
Resignation, I might eventually be able to manage. Will have to, if it comes to that.
But happy about the kid who wants to kill herself, metaphorically at any rate, by erasing her own past and major aspects of her own body — while strenuously avoiding dealing with the actual mental health and trauma problems in her life? Who denies, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, that she was ever really a girl?
Who could be happy about that? I’ll never be happy about that.
Sorry for the rant. Bad week.
And how ridiculous is it that parents are expected to rejoice in is? We are not allowed to offer anything but acceptance. We are applauded if we walk our child into the denial of their identity. We are not allowed to look at our own mental health.
I’ve been trying resignation too. It isn’t working. You’re absolutely right, it’s always, always there. And then there’s the media. J. O-K. MD made the news again last week with her rapidly expanding 60+ member trans kid camp in San Francisco with satellite camps being planned all over the country. How can we not see this for what it is? I’m still shocked at how this is being mainstreamed and any opposing voices are ignored and scoffed at as if they’re simply bigoted morons.
Thank you puzzled. No apologies necessary.
it doesn’t get better. As parents, we are not allowed to say that.
Sorry you had a(nother) bad day, Puzzled. Some days are bad and some are worse!
I feel powerlessness is the most awful thing. I also feel that somehow I should have seen this coming, done something differently and prevented what’s now happening.
I tried talking to my other daughter about it (she usually refuses to). She just said ‘it’s not so uncommon, we can’t understand how it must feel to be transgender and people feel better after they’ve transitioned.’ It’s so simple in her mind, but then she’s only eighteen. I wonder whether her generation is so programmed to be tolerant, inclusive and politically correct that absolutely anything goes, without challenge.
I moved my ‘lost’ daughter into a new flat at the weekend, ready for starting university in her new gender in September. Her leaving home was hard after twenty years. She can’t wait to be a man where no-one knows her previous identity.
All parents want is for their children to be happy. All I want is for her to be happy. She thinks this transition will make her happy, so why aren’t I rejoicing for her? Am I selfish?
I dread the changes I’ll see each time I see her now. I dread the troubles she’ll face, trying to ‘pass’ when so obviously female.
I don’t know how to keep strong and sane – any suggestions welcome!
CMM – If you haven’t come across him before try Gender Critical Dad, especially this post.
http://gendercriticaldad.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/ignore-redirect-and-reward-dealing-with.html
We are in a similar situation. I think time going by has helped – you learn to live with uncertainty. On good days, I try and think how we can all come out of this nightmare “wiser and better”. On bad days – well best not go there. Good luck to you.
Thank you, ScaredMum I shall have a look at that and good luck to you, too.
This website may have just saved me! My 13 yr old daughter announced she was ‘trans’ in Feb and pans sexual, we are worried sick! It has taken over her life, she is utterly utterly convinced of it, but we are not! I feel to question the whole idea means we are some kind of ‘phobic’ which we are just not! She starved herself initially to try to prevent developing, but after doctors appointments this seems to have improved. She had a relationship at school with another girl who is transgender who has influenced her, but she is so determined, it’s frightening! Nothing we say or do gets through, mixed with 13year old hormones we now end up arguing which is horrid. She is so intelligent, caring, beautiful inside and out we just don’t know what to do next! We refuse to use the new name she has created, or use different pronouns, we did go to CAMHS and they insisted on using this new name, we got upset….I can’t explain, but I have something in my gut that just tells me this is not right, and we are finding it hard to process everything, get it into a form of communication at the same time fending off the media hype and positive vibes of being trans….we just need help!
Caringmom, I am going through the exact same thing with my 14 year old daughter. She never showed any signs, ever, wanting to be a boy. NEVER EVER! She has several friends at school that are trans, and I know they influenced her decision. Social media plays a huge role in it. I know in my heart that my daughter is not trans. She wants me to use her new name and use new pronouns. I absolutely refuse to do so. To try to keep the peace somewhat, I do call her by her nick name which is very neutral. She is currently in counseling as well as myself because I am literally sick about this . My anxiety level peaks when I even hear the word trans on TV. I love my daughter with all my heart and I am going to fight tooth and nail for her. I pray everyday for her. I am too glad I found this site, because I feel absolutely alone in this. I feel like no one knows how I feel. Hang in there.
Jill – Are you in my head? Because I’m experiencing the exact same thing with my 14 year old daughter, and I could have written exactly what you did…
yes – I think I know exactly how you feel… this whole trans thing is just that – a “thing” – I know this because I asked my daughter one day, how she decided she was transgender, and she replied “I didn’t know it was a thing you could do, I wasn’t open minded enough before” … 🤦🏼♀️ smh
All her life she was all girl in every way – and then it all changed. I blame the internet and those who prey on vulnerable impressionable young people… and peer pressure too… it’s a “thing”?? Sounds like a fad, doesn’t it? Doesn’t make it any easier, but I’m trying to ride it out without succumbing to the pet rock that it resembles… there are many of us parents going through this issue, and to make it worse for me, her dad and I have been separated for several years, just as good as divorced… and he apparently doesn’t feel like this trans “thing” is a problem… but something that makes your daughter self harm? Definitely a problem.
I’m holding your hand and giving you a virtual hug, Jill, hoping this will get better for us all…
Hi Jill, I am so sorry you are experiencing the same because this is tough! Are you in UK? I am keen to hear how you chose the right kind of counselling for your daughter, because so far here, all we have had are people using the new name my daughter has chosen, and this seems wrong to me, I feel we need someone who does not promote or encourage, but almost the opposite, if such a thing exists? Stay strong, I too will fight this with every bone in my body.
Are you in Toronto? You mentioned CAMH? Skip that route, but certainly try to find Dr. Kenneth Zucker. Google him. He is still seeing clients, and he wrote the book on gender dysphoria in children. You may find he has a different approach to the current CAMH. I have met him for therapy and he is kind and understanding. Good Luck!
Hello Caringmom,
I’m so sorry to hear of your problems. It’s surprising and frustrating when professionals just go along with the transgender issue as if there were no other options, such as exploring dysphoric feelings and looking at all the different possible ways of coping or dealing with them.
Is it possible to find a neutral counsellor who will not just go along with this, but will help your daughter to think things through more objectively? I know this may cost money and time but it may be helpful and perhaps you can suggest it to her in a way that doesn’t seem too dismissive.
I did meet with a counsellor and my daughter together to try to talk in a neutral space, but sadly things had gone too far already.
Or maybe there’s someone your GP can recommend.
I guess you’ve probably already thought of these things.
She’s so young, I really hope that time is on your side and she can work through this before she becomes an adult.
What is your gut feeling about the other girl?
I do need to find neutral counselling but that seems to be a rare thing here, which seems crazy! My gut feeling about the other girl is she has influenced a lot of this, but what scares me is my daughter is so totally totally adamant that as far as she is concerned her female existence is dead and I have no clue how to reverse this. She is so young, she can’t use my washing machine or make a cup of tea, but feels she is equipped to make such a massive decision like this…I struggle to comprehend this. I am sorry to hear your counselling was not successful, is there anything else or someone else you could try?
This is a difficult subject and I don’t want to alarm anyone, but I’m wondering whether anyone out there has had a similar experience? Or knows whether anything online may have encouraged this?
About a year before my daughter told me she was transgender, she made a suicide attempt. I came home from work to find her floating under the water in the bath, with an empty bottle of spirits and empty pill packets beside her and evidence of cutting on her breasts. I dragged her out of the water, tried to keep her awake, called an ambulance (which arrived four hours later!!!) and spent the night in hospital with her. The next day she was released after a brief interview with a nurse who said she wasn’t at risk of a repeat attempt. Obviously, this was the most harrowing experience, which I shall never get out of my mind. She said she had just wanted her brain to stop for a bit and didn’t know what she was doing.
I absolutely do not want to underestimate the anguish my daughter must have been feeling in order to take this potentially fatal action. But some things bothered me at the time and still do. The pills, she had got online and were in ziplock bags clearly marked with their names. In the hospital, she took photos of herself all wired up and on a drip, to send to goodness knows whom, which struck me as bizarre and macabre. God forgive me, but I sometimes wonder whether this was somehow staged, following some kind of online instructions, as part of the process of gaining the drugs and surgery to transition. As if perhaps, when interviewed by the specialist (whom she hasn’t yet seen), this will weigh in her favour to get what she wants.
Am I paranoid? Or is there a guide online somewhere that gives steps to gaining the transition you want, whatever it takes? Are people being groomed to do this on there?
My daughter was at home alone all day doing university courses online for two years while I was out at work. I just wonder where she was going on the internet. If you can learn to make bombs on there, I guess you can learn to do anything.
Facebook, twitter, tumblr, wpath, uspath, human rights campaign, Susan’s place and YouTube to name a few. I wouldn’t suggest you confront her on your suspicion, but it’s very possible. So sorry this has touched all of our lives.
There are many places for DIY hormone therapy suggestions as well as advice on how to twist a doctor/therapist’s arm to prescribe HRT.
Reddit’s “ask a transgender” is one such place. Here’s an example (this isn’t a teen, but you get the idea): https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/6adgm8/if_you_are_diy_because_of_gatekeeping/#bottom-comments
Linked in one of the comments is WPATH’s SoC, which justifies prescribing hormones to anyone who has already started them without physician oversight. It’s a clever workaround legitimized by WPATH. Page 33:
In selected circumstances, it can be acceptable practice to provide hormones to patients who have not fulfilled these criteria. Examples include facilitating the provision of monitored therapy using hormones of known quality as an alternative to illicit or unsupervised hormone use or to patients who have already established themselves in their affirmed gender and who have a history of prior hormone use.”
Link to SoC: https://s3.amazonaws.com/amo_hub_content/Association140/files/Standards%20of%20Care%20V7%20-%202011%20WPATH%20(2)(1).pdf
What a horrible experience.
Am I paranoid? Or is there a guide online somewhere that gives steps to gaining the transition you want, whatever it takes? Are people being groomed to do this on there?
Shockingly, the answer is yes. The best account I know is on the blog Transgender Reality: What Trans People Are Really Saying Online in a post entitled When suicide is presented as the logical alternative.
That said, what you have quoted your daughter as saying, that ‘she had just wanted her brain to stop for a bit and didn’t know what she was doing’, is similar to something a friend of mine said after she made a suicide attempt many years ago, when we were both students. In her case the attempt was related to serious depression. (I am glad to say that she is still with us, and has not attempted suicide since that time.)
Your daughter may have been influenced by ‘suicide contagion’. If I have properly understood your other comments, the episode you describe took place in 2015. That was the year that began with the news of Josh/Leelah Alcorn’s suicide at the very end of December 2014. Alcorn left a long suicide note on Tumblr. After his death he was treated as a kind of secular ‘trans’ saint on Tumblr and DeviantArt.
Alcorn’s suicide was followed by other suicides and attempts. The Washington Post noted the trend as early as February and published a thoughtful piece which included a discussion of suicide contagion: Inside Tumblr’s teen suicide epidemic. It is sad but not entirely surprising that there were further teenage suicides over the next few months, including a cluster of four in San Diego.
4thWaveNow has several good posts on teen suicide attempts.
Thanks, Artemisia. This is all so out of control and sinister. There seem to be ‘icons’ with such influence, whose own mental health is seriously in question.
I shall look at the links although I’m scared to!
I have tried to talk to my daughter about the influence of places she visits online such as Tumblr, etc. and she says I am insulting her intelligence. But then by her own admission, she lies when she’s feels it’s necessary.
But why would anyone who is already struggling with life, with anxiety, stress and social difficulties, make their life SO MUCH HARDER by going through the horror of trying to ‘pass’ and transition. Is there someone out there pushing them?
At the weekend I was sorting out some clothes in my daughter’s room as I had relatives coming to stay. There were dozens of gorgeous bras (that she bought herself) and other female clothes, yet she said she’d cleared out all her unwanted stuff. She didn’t take any of the stuff she loves from her bedroom to her new flat, which looks so bare. It has no feel of her personality at all. All the face masques and smelly stuff she was still using until she left are replaced by a razor and a masculine shower gel. It seems alien, a travesty, not ‘her’ at all and I feel she has even lost herself.
Next week she’s going to see a private surgeon about top surgery. The same week she has an appointment with the NHS gender clinic, after a year on the waiting list.
This has gone so far, so fast.
Oh, how i feel for you. i have a sibling who had surgery in 1975. He wanted to be a woman at 18, after seeing newspaper articles on Christine Jorgenson, an American GI who publicized his life as a woman. At that time there was something named Erikson Foundation, started by a woman who lived as a man and who had a lot of money (would have been a billionaire in today’s money.) I have the booklets from that era, and they are as scary as the websites are today. My sibling has never displayed feminine activities or traits. He/she has been paralyzed by the hormones and lives a life trapped in his/her body. He/she continues the hormones at age 68, and I was curious about the effects of this. The endocrinologist we consulted told him/her that the hormones would cause further strokes and result in coma. He/she said that it was the hormones that gave him/her an identity. It is odd how different people have their identity pegged to just one thing in their lives. Please accept my empathy. It can destroy our families and our own identity.
We had a somewhat similar experience but my daughter told a school counselor that she was considering suicide. This set into motion a series iof events completely out if our control. This was coming from a kid who showed zero signs of depression but had recently started dressing male (who cares) and was having friends and teammates call her by various names and
male pronouns. At one point a few months earlier she asked us to call her by another name and it was at a point when we had house guests for a month and we asked her to slow things down (stall and hope it would fade). She started dressing female again and so we dropped it until she told her school this. She was at this point going to therapy because when she came out as gay she lost most of her friends. We are thankful that she did ultimately get help but wished that she had come to us first. Long story short, after her hospitalization she went to a 2 month facility for intensive therapy because whether or not the suicide cry for help was scripted or not it still meant a deep underlying problem that needed addressing. At that facility we found out she had been sexually assaulted and we also learned that she was on the asd spectrum. Her next stop was a year at a residential treatment facility where again she asked for the name change and we said no because everything we have read says that leads to the path of medical intervention. You are too young (15) to be make decisions that will effect your body fir a life time. The place was great in that they have zero social media influences there. They are not there to influence your decision but to help you figure out who you are by gaining your confidence back and looking introspectively at yourself. That said there were 6 other kids out of 35 who were struggling with their identity. Once my daughter moved passed the group mentality and started to focus on herself she has settled into a place I think she can be comfortable with who she is. Gay and masculine. Same name. Celebrating her strengths. She has chosen her next school to be an all girls school that is very feminism focus. We don’t kid ourselves that it will be smooth sailing from here on out but I do think she finally is thinking for herself.
Purplemom, I am glad your daughter is doing better and thinking for herself. I hope her new school will be good for her. There are quite a bit of trans happenings in girls schools–you probably know that.It is not easy to avoid. Some schools have more of a trans-friendly culture than others. Good luck to your daughter and your family.
http://www.ncgs.org/resources/transgender.aspx
Thankyou all for reading my message, your replies and your suggestions, it means a lot. I am in the UK it is not even 6am but I am up because I can’t sleep, another night worrying about the whole situation, it is totally consuming. My daughter told me ‘something just clicked in her brain and she knew she was trans and it can’t ever change’ no matter what I search for, I cannot find any references to this, so I wonder if it is something that has been said to her? We have not had any suicide issues thank god, and I am just so sorry to hear from you that have – that is tough. I just cannot explain how in my gut I know this is not right, and I too somehow will fight this, not because I can’t accept or I’m in denial, I just KNOW this is wrong. I will fight this with every bit of strength I have, I fiercely need to protect my daughter, a mothers love knows no bounds I just don’t know how. The other transgender friend ( who she went out with recently) has just got in touch asking to meet up, and today I need to find some strength to tackle this issue as I’m not happy, I don’t need any more influences. Every day seems to be a battle. I am having counselling, but my daughter currently isn’t, I don’t know how to find the right people who will not advocate this? To know I’m not alone is a comfort, so to you all….keep going, sending virtual hugs to all as this is tough. Any suggestions welcome, as I now have no idea where what to do next, I am desperate.
Hang in there, Caringmom. Your gut is telling you that the “click” in your daughter’s brain came from her internet browsing and her immediate social group–not her authentic self. Several parents have posted effective ways to deal with this new identity your daughter professes. Good luck!
I don’t think there is an easy answer and you may have a long road ahead of you. Our daughter is older and on the waiting list for an adult gender clinic here in the U.K.- we are hoping the waiting list is very long. Can you find a clinical psychologist who specialists see in adolescent mental health – i.e. Someone used to helping young people deal with issues like eating disorders and anxiety. Our daughter agreed to see one (I saw her first on my own). Although she only saw her a few times (she has ASD and doesn’t really do talking therapy) the psychologist managed to suggest the possibility that she might not want to grow up (i.e. She presents as a pre-pubescent boy). In the end you want your child to get to a position that they are a)mentally well b) capable of making good decisions. I would steer clear of counsellors with less formal training, however kind and understanding.
I really feel for you and your daughter. I dont have the answers of course but can share what we are doing in the uk for my 14 year old. We have been gping to CAMHS for over a year and i havent found then to be at all confirming, far from it. They have advised keeping an open mind and seeing this as a stage in her life which may or may not change which she has accepted. Advice has been to go slow with any name etc changes and only make a change if the current step feels uncomfortable. Steps can be towards or away from trans. Also they have been helping her to deal with her anxiety and looking at other possible issues eg asd traits. We have also been to the tavistock a few times but so far it has been a slow exploration of gender issues. my daughter still dresses in boyish clothes and uses a gender neutral name but is no longer pushing for anything more. I have made it clear to her that and also the tavistock staff that i believe she is female but that her anxiety plus what she has read on the internet has led her to feel she is male. I have shared some trans sceptical material with her including things on this site and others about young people who have detransitioned. I think this has helped, as i say she has not pushed for further changes and tells me she is not thinking of any permanent changes in the future. I just hope she sticks with this view, the alternative scares me to death. I think she appreciates that we have listened to her and have taken her to GIDS. I dont know if you have been to CAMHS or GIDS if not i would suggest giving them a try. So far at least i have found both to be helpful rather than harmful. The very best of luck to you and everyone else dealing with this nightmare
Hi Caringmom,
I’m not in the UK so I can’t recommend anyone for you, but I did want to recommend this article from Lisa Marchiano, a therapist and regular reader here who blogs at The Jung Sole. She has compiled information and observations from parents whose kids have come out of this and no longer claim to be transgender. http://thejungsoul.com/new-guidance-for-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria/
Thank you so much for this. Most of what she advises makes a lot of sense so it is good to know that this approach can lead to a good outcome for those caught up in this. After our initial panic i would say we have been trying to use this type of approach, albeit not always succeeding due to emotions getting in the way etc. So good to be reminded that we dont have to be perfect too.
I know I haven’t posted for a while, and fingers crossed this will be my last post! My beautiful daughter is back! It’s been a rocky road of lies, tears, fights……but now peace!
For those of you who know our story…. From declarations of being gay at 13, then wanting to be trans earlier this year, now a Pan female ( which I can deal with)!
This is how:
1. We went to a psychologist to discuss her self esteem and gender confusion. My daughter didn’t really feel it was helping so we stopped. I then wrote a report, saying it was from the psyc saying that her problems stemmed from anxiety and self esteem , but that gender transition would do more harm than good. ( my daughter was very interested to read it)
2. We changed to an ‘alternative ‘ school, from a private one. No more uniforms, or rules about hair etc. her hair became shorter and bleached, and changes colour on a monthly basis! The school also has no student leaders, school bells, and teachers by first names. The students can be themselves….it makes them happy and comfortable that no one questions their appearance. She is excelling, doesn’t miss a day, but also has a different perspective.
3. I told her to experience the world. Date girls, date boys, do whatever, but cut the labels.
She dated a girl. Dated a FtM boy, and now is dating a gorgeous CIS boy who she met through her circle of non- binary friends.
She recently told her sister that she is no longer trans or gay, but definitely not straight….more of a pan person….
Told me the other day that she is over all the ‘drama’ of the LBGTQ teen community….too many issues….
One of her school friends who is male, but presents as female on weekends, is now getting stoned and wasted, and is of great concern to her…..maybe it is a lack of attention that starts this?
As a side note, I have closed my shop, so am now available much much more to my kids, especially on the weekend and can watch her netball games now. Maybe that helped?
Good luck my friends, I have gone from a child wanting hormones, name changes, and wanting to start a new school term as a boy, to a funky teenage girl who is happy. ( most of the time)!
If you know in your guts it’s not their destiny as I did….you to can get through this…
Love to all xxx
NotYourDestiny
So happy for you and your daughter that you are now out of the horror of this nightmare.
Thank you for posting. Gives me hope!
New day, back to square one! This rollercoaster is messing me up…..last night told me she still believes she is trans! Hates her voice, her hips, her thighs….I asked what her boyfriend thought…” He calls me Josh and loves me for me!” For fu#%^ sake!
Notyourdestiny, thank you for the info! I’m soooo happy for you, your daughter and your family!! I’m hoping to use some of your techniques to bring my daughter around and rescue her from this cult.
Have you considered writing a book or your own website to help other parents & kids going through this? (There are websites which you can easily do this or contact me directly and I will help you.) Posting here is great but having an individualized perspective in cyberspace, is great too. For parents who may not know about 4thwave or those who want an independent site which isn’t so large. There’s a huge amount of info to wade through. That’s great for those willing to do so but overwhelming for newcomers who need are overwhelmed to begin with and need some quick answers.
Thank you!
last night told me she still believes she is trans! Hates her voice, her hips, her thighs…
This passage from a post by a woman on tumblr struck me as perceptive:
“Sex/gender dysphoria has a root. Whether you’re male or female , there is a root to all of the separate and complex thoughts & feelings we, in my opinion, simplify to the word “dysphoria”. Hating your breasts and wanting to get a double mastectomy is a specific feeling, which is completely different to the feeling of hating your voice because it is feminine – whiny, nagging, unimportant, unheard. Yet these are two complex feelings which, before I spent time analysing my dysphoria for what it is and picking it apart, I would just describe as “feeling dysphoric”. I just wish sex/gender dysphoric people had the resources, ability and safety to understand their dysphoria and how if you can look closer at each individual feeling you’d lump under dysphoria and see it for what it is, think about how you may have been socialised to feel that way, you may be able to heal those wounds – or not, but you deserve the chance to heal before you make major, sometimes permanent decisions. It’s normal not to want to have breasts when you’ve been violated for being female your entire life, on various scales. It’s normal to hate your voice when it has been silenced and treated as lesser, to want your opinion to be as valuable as men’s. Your feelings aren’t just nothing, you deserve to heal.” — vulvavengence
It is very difficult to know where to begin! I am a 52 year old divorced/remarried mother of 2 grown children. A girl/30 and a boy/27. They were 12 and 9 when i divorced their father. Their stepfather joined our lives when they were 16 and 13. Life was pretty good in those days, as my kids loved Him and He treated and raised them as his own. My daughter: Looking back now, I can see things about her that I should have seen when she was younger. “I believe” she is bi-polar and narcissistic. She did tell me once that she was diagnosed Bi-polar, but has since denied it. Most of our adult relationship was of me walking on eggshells for fear of any reaction that might set her off and most of the time it worked, I thought! When she was about 20, she moved out to live with her boyfriend and his mother. Not long after, she got pregnant and had my grandson in March, 2009. What a joyous day that was! She called me to come into the delivery room while in labor and I even got to cut his cord!! That Thanksgiving of 2009, my daughter and boyfriend were thrown out of his mothers house (so I was told, but later learned other wise). Having no where to go with a 8 month old baby, My husband and I said they can come live with us, WITH RULES. Starting in Jan., they would have to pay rent of $800.00 a month in which would be put into a bank account, and when they move out, they would get every dime back! We wanted to teach them responsibility. We got Jan. rent just fine! Then Feb. came, nothing! When we asked, they (I should say more my daughter) had many excuses. After a wk, we told them for every day that they are late, we are keeping $7.00. That DID NOT go well, they moved out a week later. That estrangement didn’t last too long, maybe a month or 2. The next couple of years weren’t bad, they seemed to be making it on their own. My husband and I had a camp and enjoyed many visits with them, and watching little our grandson grow into a toddler just melted my heart! Then when our grandson was about 3 (2012), they had a nasty breakup, the B/F moved out and they were able to work out a custody/finance agreement without court. Then very shortly after, my daughter informed me she was dating a woman. Knowing that there is a difference between “understanding” and “excepting”, I did the latter. After all, it’s her life! My husband and I tried very hard to accept the G/F, but she was not very warming in return and we felt she had some serious mental issues. Even with that, when my daughter said they were getting married in May, 2013, we accepted that decision. They did get married and things were ok, considering we didn’t understand, but we accepted. Then in Dec., 2013, after 7 months of marriage, my daughter called to tell me her new wife will be transitioning into a man! In my mind I was like “What the heck!!!, but to her I was like “OK”, if that’s what you need to do! AGAIN, not understanding, but accepting! And so, the wife is now my son-in-law with hormones and legal name change. Things went with the flow, then in March, 2014, I called my daughter to say hi and see who will have our grandson on his B-day, she said his dad, I said ok, will call him there. She never acted like anything was wrong when I talked to her. Then she text me 10 min. later and said don’t call there, she is taking the dad to court. I’m like, why didn’t she say anything before, so I called to find out if everything was ok and she had a complete melt down! Screaming and swearing at me and said she wants nothing more to do with me! Estrangement #2 lasted 9 months. She never did take the dad to court (at that point) and my husband and I would see grandson through him. Then that Dec. (2014) she said she wanted to work things out, I said ok and asked if she would like to join us on New Years day (2015), every year we throw a big gathering. She came with our grandson. We never did talk. That year went uneventful, our grandson was growing into quite the little “boy”, great summer and holidays to follow. Then that Dec.(2015), I asked if they will be coming New Years again. She said she was, but it was our grandson dads day and would check with him. Then the text! Not only was our grandson not coming, but neither was she. So I called (with her on speaker phone this time,so my husband could hear), and again, off the deep end she went! A month and 1/2 goes by with nothing, but I knew I would be seeing them because I was going to be a grandmother again! My son’s wife was having a baby and the shower Jan. 30, 2016. Was so glad to see our grandson (now 6, going on 7 in March). My husband and I thought, what a energetic and lively boy he is, but WHY does he have a girls leopard jacket on??? My new grandson was due on March 28th, but complications arose and he was born almost 2 months early, Feb., (a wk. after the baby shower), with hydrocephalus (water on the brain). At 3 wks old he had brain surgery and was at Children’s Hospital for almost 3 months. With all that going on, thoughts of our other grandson in a girls coat went on the back burner until beginning of April. I get a “coming out” letter from my daughter that my grandson now is my grand daughter, and “her” new name is @@@@@ !!!!!!! YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! Then about a week later, my son tells me my new grand baby has a genetic disorder and may never walk or talk. The very same day he told us all (including his sister) the sad news, she posted the “coming out” letter on Face Book!!! Could not even wait another day! We are not seeing eye to eye on this, even after seeing our grandson therapist a few times. My husband and I both agree that the therapist needs a therapist and our grandson is being brainwashed! My daughter also decided to take our grandson dad to court for full custody! We believe she did so, to legally change grandson name. She made up all kinds of lies in order to try and win. When my husband and I went to court, we stood by our grandson dad. That did not go over well with my daughter. She deleted me on FB, This was a long summer with no contact, going back and forth to court (which my daughter finally dropped) and seeing pictures people would send me of my grandson in dresses and girly bathing suits! Then in Nov. I reached out to have our grandson for an over night. She let us! We took him to the Museum of Science and he had a BLAST! ACTED 100% boy! Then he went home and the wrath of her texts come!!! We didn’t call him @@@@@!! 2 months go by, we reached out to have him again to give him his X-mas gifts! We put no tags on his gifts from us, but he had a few from other relatives, and he seemed distressed, so I asked him why? He said because he is a girl. I asked him why he thought he was a girl and he said his gender. I asked what that was and he said he did not know! He seemed so confused! But again, we had a great time!!!!! No issue from visit by daughter this time, but would exploded every time I didn’t use correct pronoun or call him @@@@@ in texts to her! Then came the big one! March, 2017, we wanted to take him to the circus for his 8th B-day and a party the next day for my other grand baby’s 1st B-day ( it was celebrated a month late, because he had another brain surgery the day after his real 1st B-day in Feb.). The circus was awesome! That night, I looked to see what he had for clothes for the next day and all he had was a pink sleeveless summer dress. I explained gently to him, that it is very cold out (in the teens that day) and he would have to wear the same clothes he wore to circus (girl jeans and a long sleeve girl shirt), which I washed. Again, great time at party and he was out sledding with other boys. That night, my daughter was the worse ever! She wanted no part that the clothes were winter inappropriate!!! 2 months go by and NOTHING! Then this May, she text me to see if I wanted our grandson over the Memorial Day weekend! After talking with my husband, we both concluded she just wanted a baby sitter. I told her that we are both very tired of her wrath every time we take him and if she thought we upset him every time we do, then we decline, we love him to much to put him threw that. Her reply, “your loss”! I have not heard from her since! The last few weeks we have been trying to get him again, only to find out that the dad is now going along with this madness and they have Legally changed his name. Next will be the puberty blockers! He is ONLY 8 years old! Sorry this is so long!
What an awful situation you are in, Muttmere; you must be so worried. I have no idea what to suggest except that I really hope you’re able to maintain contact with your grandson. In Britain I think you would have rights to access as grandparents, but it sounds as though you’re in America.
If you did manage to spend some time with your grandson, could you use a neutral nickname for him? Even if your daughter only wants a babysitter, at least you would still be spending quality time with your grandson.
Thank you CMM, There are some grand parents rights in US, but complicated by the facts that though we are not far from each other, parties are in different States and that the parents are on the same side.We are looking into legal rights, and will keep you posted. Our main concern is them starting him on the blockers at such a young age. We have always treat him with love and respect and never had an issue with him when he is or has been with us. It is my daughter and spouse that has made this so difficult because we don’t and will not believe our grand son is a girl to them.
Perhaps you could consider your daughter and her family as though they were members (i.e. victims) of a cult, and look at online resources as to how best to deal with that?
Thank you ScaredMum, I have long started to believe this is a cult thing going on and will do more research on it. There had never been any issue about gender with my daughter or grandson until my daughter met her spouse. I learned more about transgender this last year and 1/2 than I have my whole live. I always just thought it was guys who dressed as girl secretly. I didn’t even know girls could be transgender.
Anytime a group can convince a person (regardless of age, race, gender (the real gender), or socioeconomic status) to surgically alter their body parts and consume hormones (which frequently cause cancer at some future point), they have absolute, complete & unequivocal control over you.
What is a cult? Isn’t it a group that has absolute, complete & unequivocal control over you?
Exactly! If not a cult very cult like.
Notyourdestiny, I was happy to hear that your daughter was back and now she has a boyfriend calling her Josh. Geez! Truly, our kids are not all right. This is a disassociation.
Notyourdestiny, I firmly believe Dissociation is alive and thriving in every single person who claims to be trans. It’s spurred on exponentially by the cult mentality. They are working, maybe intentionally or maybe unintentionally, in a cohesive sweeping manner like a large school of fish.
Here’s a little info help understand dissociation.
https://www.nami.org/Learn-More/Mental-Health-Conditions/Dissociative-Disorders
My daughter, who claims to be trans, was diagnosed at 14 y.o. with Dissociation Identity Disorder along with anxiety & depression. We have not one one but three diagnoses to work with. The doctor, who is very active in the International Society for the Study of Trauma & Dissociation, diagnosed her.
Being well-trained by the trans cult, my daughter began her trans narrative at every session. (If one good thing comes from this trans BS, it’s that they teach kids to argue their points very well – a double-edged sword, of course. She placed completely nailed her college English placement test and placed into Advanced English comp.) Despite the doc’s promise to me to overlook look the trans schtuff and treat her mental problems, he began researching trans via the APA and my husband & I became his target of blame for not “being supportive”. He completely bought the trans-narrative BS. He did help my child tamp down her depression & anxiety but he completely ignored the Dissociation after that. He even went after me with a barrage of insults about me being Christian nutcase who would not support anything that had to do with homosexuality or transgenderism.
I’m not a Christian nutcase. I don’t go to church or support most organized religion due to their indoctrinations. Yes, I do not support transgenderism. The only people who can possibly be TRULY transgender are those who are Hermaphrodites.
I feel All persons claiming to trans are mentally ill in some form. Maybe it has not been discovered yet. When I hear people say, “My child is perfectly normal then this trans thing popped up”. I’m sorry. There is simply something those parents are missing. Sometimes, we cannot see the forest for the trees especially when it’s our own immediate family.
Concerning homosexuality: I’m on the fence about that. I do believe some people MAY not have a choice. But why? What makes them different from me? I have noticed that many who are homosexual were abused and/or suffered a traumatic event or series of events in their lives. How is that different from the general population? I don’t know. I think there are many things concerning mental health which we do not have answers for. BUT, it is blatantly obvious to me that when I see positive stories such as the one above concerning the daughter who identified as homosexual then trans then back to heterosexual, it really opens my eyes. Those were decisions that young lady made. Maybe they were unconscious decisions and maybe they were unconscious decisions, but decisions none-the-less. It proves to me, without a shadow of a doubt, trans feelings are just that – feelings. They can be altered. How those feelings are modified depends on their environment – negative or positive.
Oh please, ‘many who are homosexual were abused and/or suffered a traumatic event or series of events in their lives’, don’t you think it’s time to leave the homophobic Evangelical talking points back in the 80s where they belong?
I agree with you that when parents say ‘my kid is trans out of nowhere’, they’re missing something. Their child has almost certainly been marinating in an internet morass of bad gender politics, mental problems, and anger at the ‘cistem’ for quite some time. I’m 19 and I’ve seen it and I’ve seen where 13 year olds like that hang out on the internet and I was 13 and almost trans once so I know.
Thank you mvrobin, Today was a bad day! 2 Lawyers in 2 States and neither could help me. The only advice they both could give me was to call DCF (department of children/family) and report it as abuse. I did, and they too could do nothing but file my report! I feel so helpless and hopeless!
When someone reports child abuse (and what is happening to your grandson IS abuse), does it really just go on a file? What if he was in physical danger? Would that just go on a file? Surely someone should at the very least follow it up! Please don’t give up trying.
Muttmere, I feel so badly for you, your hubby and your grandson and your daughter. I don’t intend to hurt you, it seems she is mentally ill but of course, she is now hiding under the all-protective blanket of the Trans cult.
It seems you are located in the USA. Do you feel comfortable indicating if you on the west coast, east coast or in the middle states?
Can anyone chime in and offer some options?
Hi mvrobin, you didn’t hurt me. I’m not sure if she is mentally ill vs. brainwashed by her spouse, or both. It is quit the disturbing situation. I have been seeing a therapist just to keep myself grounded. She too, thinks this it crazy stuff going on. I have dealt with a lot just dealing with my daughters marriage, then the spouse transition, but this brainwashing of my grandson is just over the top for me! I can not believe how much support is out there for this cult! Who are protecting the children? I am in one of the New England states of the USA. I have reached out to specialist around the US and Canada for help. I have read just about every article possible, I have called Lawyers, I have joined site like this, have plastered my FB page with stories of puberty blockers and their effects, I just keep searching for answers or help. I’m open to any advice anyone can give me except being told to accept this as normal or ok. I will never believe that!
Don’t know what to do or say today. The amount of pain and frustration expressed on here is so overwhelming.
Thank you for creating this space and for all the help and support you all provide.
My thoughts and hopes are with all of you/us who are caught up in this horror.
Thank you for this post and your reply about DCF…YES, they just filed it! They will no get involved! After all, to them, my daughter is doing “nothing wrong”!Let me find out they started puberty blockers on him for sure and a wrath of me will be unleashed! I’m trying hard to prevent that, but have no re-course to stop it. But if they start it, and it is not FDA approved for Gender Dysphoria when he does, I will be speaking out more then! How are these doctors getting away with this?
I can only imagine what drives these doctors. Maybe a combination of feeling a god-like power to control and change people’s bodies and minds while making a huge amount of money. Perhaps they even get some perverse kick out of what they do. I can’t believe it’s genuine concern for their ‘patients’, unless of course the doctors themselves are deluded. The doctor my daughter is paying for hormones, prescribed them without a qualm after a brief phone call.
But maybe I’m bitter, cynical and politically incorrect.
It is absolutely incredible that setting a young child on this path doesn’t come under the heading of abuse – mental and physical. Be strong and don’t give up.
How do I be strong and not give up? Very hard to do when you feel there is no fight left to fight anymore! I have sought every option, yet I still “try” to find more. Why am I so consumed by this child when I have so much more in life I could put my focus on? A wonderful husband, another grandson overwhelmed with health issues, (which I LOVE and try to keep separate). I don’t want to stop fighting, but I’m also at a point where this may be a losing battle! “I AM not taking this well”! Running out of hope, help and options, with no where else to turn! What do I do now?
Muttmere I am so sorry; I know this is overwhelming. I’m glad you have a wonderful husband to support you and please do look after yourself now. The powerlessness is so hard. If you’ve done all you can, maybe all you can do now is to be there for when someone does actually turn to you. I do feel for you.
If you can afford it one option is to hire a private investigator and put them under surveillance. Then you may get direct evidence of mental illness or abuse. At least you will find out what is actually going on and that may give you some idea what to do next.
Thank you CMM and Darkest Yorkshire! Good advice from both. I’m trying to get to the point where I can help others, but it’s so hard when you are in such a state of denial “that you have done all you can”. Some days I feel like I’m there, I’ve given up all hope, but most days I feel the need to fight on! I have thought a lot about a PI and checked out cost Darkest Yorkshire, but weighing the cost to what they MIGHT find out is not something we could afford right now. Maybe something in the future since no Lawyer will take our case. I have started a new Facebook page and not sure if I’m allowed to share it here? I’m guessing if I am not allowed, this post will stay in moderation and I will know then. I don’t know where to look or who to ask? But here it is in case it is ok! https://www.facebook.com/Muttmere/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel
Hello Muttmere,
I think you’ve made a great job of the Facebook page. We have to speak up for the children. All children should have the freedom to grow up without being put into any gender pigeonhole, whether that relates to their true gender or their ‘desired’ gender and this encouragement of choosing a gender and blocking hormones is utter, dangerous nonsense which will confuse them at best and at worst, is abuse.
I think people are scared to speak out in case they seem bigoted or politically incorrect but the more people that speak up, the more these practices will rightly be challenged.
I recently met a psychologist on a social level. He is in his 60’s, has a lovely Scottish accent and a lovely sense of humour. We got chatting and his specialty is dealing with drug addicts. Anyway, we got chatting and I told him about my daughter . He rolled his eyes and said ” it’s just like the punk movement of the 60’s. Rebellious, but cool, with a scary edge! He sees it for what it is, and doesn’t believe it should be being pandered too the way it is….a new youth epidemic!”
I got goosebumps! What? A psych who sees this for what it is! Who supports MY feelings on the subject! I asked if he would see her….he said he wasn’t sure if a teenage girl would feel comfortable with an ‘old man’ and gave me the card of a young femal psyc…..
Anyway, as previously mentioned, things seemed to get better so I didn’t follow up.
Then the bombshell after the breakup with the boyfriend…” I’m still trans, hate my boobs, voice , hips ,thighs….
I rang my friend the next morning (Mon) . By Wednesday afternoon we had an hour appointment. She loves him, and doesn’t know his trans beliefs . I think it’s his approach, he is fun and funny, with a thick accent akin to Billy Conolly, who talked to her about brain functioning, from why dogs snarl and bears their teeth at each other, to when she feels depressed, dance around like an idiot and sing ” I want to kill myself”, instead of lying in bed feeling miserable about it. When she associates feeling ‘bad’ with something wacky she will laugh….
We have another appoint next Mon….geez I wish they were everyday. It’s all about self affirmation, learning to feel good about yourself first, then tackle the rest.
I guess it actually parallels drug addiction – to make yourself forget your pain and feel better…isn’t this what our ‘trans’ teens are doing….hiding behind another gender to feel good about themselves….
If you are in Melbourne, Australia I can pass on his details….maybe a lifesaver here xxx
Stay strong
Could you send this psych. To Michigan, USA… we need her here. LOL
Yes, can we import him? Import some sanity?
I’m seeing him again tonite….maybe he may contribute to this fantastic website!
Is everyone aware of this bill? They’re continuing to equate trans with gay and make it illegal for professionals to promote sound mental health. In the bill they exempt affirmation therapy, hormone treatment, and surgery.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/928
“This bill prohibits sexual orientation or gender identity conversion therapy from being provided in exchange for compensation.”
Well, who is for conversion therapy? I think most people think of conversion therapy as a type of aversive treatment for same-sex attraction.But that is not what we are talking about. Orwellian language is at work here. This bill would outlaw the conversation that Nothyourdestiny’s daughter is having with a psychologist.
That’s my understanding as well. Gay and trans need to be separated, if for no other reason than for underhanded attempts like this. This needs to be a highly public discussion. Any ideas? I’ve been considering a YouTube channel or a podcast. I’m a know nothing nobody from nowhere. How do we get the conversation going?
This is already actively going on. Conversation is not conversion therapy but somehow that is now included. And as soon as a person self diagnoses as dysphoric or transgender it is pushing to transition as the only recourse.
Does anyone know how we could fight this?
Someone would need to sue Norman Spack for fraud and win.
I don’t know. We could protest the bill. Writing to Senators and newspapers requires using your real name (which then reveals your child’s name). A dilemma.
I could not reply directly to a reply to my post, I don’t know why (no reply button)?…But thank you CMM for your comment on liking my new page! Just one day, and so far, a great response!!! Though in doing this, and slowly figuring out the in’s and out’s of how to get my page up and running, I realize FB in not as anonymous as it is here. If you post on my new page, I could/can figure out who you are. But to be completely honest, I really do not care! We all have the same goal here. The only thing I can say, anyone here that replies on my new page has my utmost respect and my “promise” that your privacy and animosity will be just as respected there as it is here! https://www.facebook.com/Muttmere/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel
Hi Friends….I’m not very good at linking stories, but I think if you google 60 minutes Australia – transgender teen changes his mind, you will find a very interesting story, plus statements from a Pediatric Endocronologist from Sydney….maybe the message is starting to get through?! I shed a tear seeing this, and realised I AM A GOOD PARENT for not Enabling my daughter to transition.
Yes Notyourdestiny, you are a good parent for not being an enabler of this self-destruction. Going along with this identity meltdown goes against nature, history, and family (including the entire family of humankind).
Not that I blame those that go along. Parents are certainly pressured to do so on many fronts.
I just found my dad made an account on here for me “Lilly”. That is my birth name. I’m FTM and go by Liam. I didn’t realize he cared so much about me. It brings tears to my eyes knowing he genuinely is concerned and cares. I love you dad.
Welcome sweetheart! I hope you can read some of this and understand how much we want the best for our kids.
Hi everyone, hope all is well. As some may know, I started a new FB page almost 2 wks ago. It has reached almost 2 thousand people, yet the response is slow. Though I have more “likes”, it seems the ones that comment are the ones who don’t agree. It has been quite the battle debating these people.They seem to repeat the same thing over and over without touching the subject at hand. I just don’t understand it. How can they even this this right for children? https://www.facebook.com/Muttmere/?pnref=story
Well done; it must be hard work keeping up with the replies, not to mention stressful dealing with some of them. It makes me realise how much pressure and influence some of our youngsters must be under when they belong to a social media group.
Thank you CMM…It had been very hard. The influence of social media not only has some bad impact on our young children, but it also seems to frighten people to speak up when it comes to controversial issues! They don’t want to get involved. Some of the private messages I have been getting are so sad and heartbreaking. People who feel the same as me, but out of fear or personal reasons can’t speak up. I respect them and would never share their stories. I probably would be the same had this issue didn’t personally affect me.
Dear Muttmere,
I have written here a few times telling the ongoing story about my girlfriend’s son. I will post an update soon but I wanted you to know that this amazing little boy is 6.5 years old and his other mother has believed he was a little girl for two-and-a-half years. It has been a very rough time for my girlfriend. This kid is so not a girl and yet we live in a progressive East Coast town and they just buy the trans girl scenario hook, line and sinker. It has been the most confounding, horrifying, and depressing situation I think I have ever encountered. Your situation sounds so similar and I want you to know that there is another family out here who understands and is going through it. Silas will be 7 in December. I worry about him all the time. But he is an incredible kid. If he was a girl, that is, seemingly a child who felt he was in the wrong body, this would be a different story. But he is not gender dysphoric and he is not female. He has just been programmed by the other mother and is not old enough or wise enough or mature enough to counter it. I’m so happy you are in this group and sharing your story. By the way, I don’t use any of our real names for obvious reasons. But we are real people, and Silas is a real little boy who is suffering under the hands of a delusional mother.
Hi Annie…I must admit, being somewhat new and so overwhelmed with what I’m going through, I missed your story. I’m sorry! My grandson will be 9 in March and “maybe” eligible for puberty blockers! Some scary stuff! I feel so bad for Silas, How confused he must be! I assume (?), you have seen my face book page ? Yesterday was a bad day with the nasty, hateful comments (most I deleted), but today was much better! I “think” I got one pro-blockers to back down a bit, then “they” became nasty because they ran out of recourse! Both a win to me I think! I don’t understand why they are so mean and hateful, then turn around and say we are? Not sure if anyone can see “reviews” on my page, but one review even said, (not exact quote,) “I hope he( my grandson) remembers you in his suicide note”! REALLY? If I can get past that, (which I have) I can get past anything! I’m mad now! P.S Annie, I stated (in another post) I’m in New England! I’m willing to narrow it down some and say one of the coastal states! Please check out my page if you already haven’t! Look forward to your update! Thank you so much for posting!
Muttmere, I am also in a New England state. I wonder if it is the same one because in my state, blockers can start as young as nine years old. So glad to know that you are out there. And everyone else as well. Yes, I will post an update very soon. And you can bet that I will add my voice on your Facebook page. The comments on there are heartbreaking and disturbing. But we are fighting for a greater truth.
Hi Annie, Yes this is heartbreaking and disturbing! I’m trying very hard to fight back on my FB page while being respectful at the same time! It is very hard when they counter back. But I can’t back down! I blame my daughter’s spouse for my own personal experiences, but I blame the media and social media for the general outbreak of this transgender ideology!
https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2017/03/supreme-incoherence-transgender-ideology-and-the-end-of-law
An interesting article. The publication is religious, but the article itself is a secular view.